Pauline Picard

[Young Offenders, March 27th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, Mrs. Micheline Germain-Saucier, the president of the teachers' union in my region, the Syndicat des enseignants et enseignantes de la région du comté de Drummond, centre du Québec, has asked me to support the Quebec consensus in favour of the rehabilitative approach to youth crime, and to oppose Bill C-7.

Mrs. Saucier wishes to remind us that youth crime is constantly decreasing, and this year has hit a 20-year low, which confirms that Bill C-7 is based on a myth. She also points out that Canada is a signatory to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which requires two distinct systems to be maintained, one for minors and one for adults.

The members of the Bloc Quebecois will support the position of Quebec stakeholders, while the Liberals will support their Minister of Justice. The reason is a simple one: we in the Bloc Quebecois are in Ottawa to defend the interests of Quebec, while the Liberals defend the interests of Ottawa in Quebec.

[Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada Act, March 27th, 2001]

Of course. Access should be given to all bona fide shareholders: most shares are held in trust by brokers, and these intermediaries are the registered shareholders. Only these intermediaries hold the list of actual shareholders, so the corporation does not know who these shareholders are and cannot communicate directly with non registered shareholders. This would ease communication between the corporation and its shareholders.

The position of chairman should be separate from the position of chief executive officer. We are also proposing a reduction of barriers to the shareholders' right to submit proposals for and during shareholders' meetings. Thus, we recommend a reduction of barriers to the shareholders' right to submit proposals.

At this time, the act and the bill provide that the bank's management may refuse a shareholder's proposal that is primarily for the purpose of promoting general economic, political, racial, religious, social or similar causes. It may essentially refuse almost anything and it is only public pressure, so to speak, that forces banks to accept shareholders' proposals.

Our proposal also deals with branch closures. We are told that banks will now be able to proceed with branch closures. We would like this to be very transparent. People, especially those living in rural and isolated areas where there are less services will be given a six month notice. How lucky; a six month notice to warn them that their bank will be closed. And who cares about where they will get the same services.

There is nothing in the bill on this. There is only the minister who is convinced that his bill will help ordinary people, small investors and small savers. I hope these flaws will be corrected in the bill before it is passed.

[Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada Act, March 27th, 2001]

As I said, our proposal dealt with limiting the number of boards on which a director can sit at the same time.

We were saying that, right now, what exists is the old boys' club rule where “I appoint you, you appoint me and we appoint one another”, which makes boards of directors increasingly less efficient and less representative of shareholders. We believe that the number of boards of directors on which a person is allowed to sit should be very limited, because one needs time and a minimum of dedication to do a good job. The bill completely ignores those recommendations.

Second, there is the elimination of potential conflicts of interests between board members and those who provide goods and services to the institution. Our proposal dealt with the elimination of potential conflicts of interests between board members and service providers.

Bill C-8 contains no provision to that effect, except the general provision on very general conflicts of interests. As we know, in the United States and even in Canada, there has been some success in getting shareholders meetings to pass, often against the will and recommendations of bank managers and other corporate directors, resolutions making it a requirement to disclose at least the fees paid to external auditors for audit services, on the one hand, and general consulting services, on the other hand.

For example, a consultant who is paid $1 million to audit records, while at the same time being paid $10 million for various consulting services could presumably have some difficulty presenting a critical internal audit report. Everyone understands that.

Third, there is the requirement to submit financial statements for review and discussion during the annual shareholders' meeting. That proposal seeks to clarify the legislation so that the agenda of the yearly shareholders' meetings include the item “consideration of financial statements and auditor's report”.

In that regard, according to the Canadian Oxford Dictionary , the word consideration means more than just tabling, but the act of considering and careful thought means not just tabling, but giving careful thought.

Since the financial statements are the main report of the agents on their management of the corporation, consideration and discussion of that document is a basic right of the principal shareholders, even those of banks.

There is also the presentation of the officers' remuneration policy to the shareholders' approval. With respect to banks, which are essentially public service companies operating in a very protected environment compared to other companies in the private sector, we find the remunerationpaid to officers literally outrageous.

Of course we know the process through which they receive very positive recommendations about remuneration systems providing they are paid this or that amount. Nevertheless, the end result is that the officers of these institutions are not necessarily paid a basic salary, but aggregate remuneration with a very generous option plan, and that is unacceptable.

As for the adoption of a code of procedure respecting the conduct of shareholders' meetings, the purpose of this proposal is to facilitate active and effective shareholder participation in meetings and to protect them from the arbitrary decisions of presiding officers who are anxious to cut short shareholders' remarks. Our suggestion is that each corporation prepare a code of procedure respecting the conduct of these meetings and that this procedure be adopted at an annual meeting of shareholders within a reasonable timeframe.

Some banks, and more particularly the Laurentian Bank, have voluntarily adopted such a code, but it is not a requirement of the bill.

Corporations should also be required to prepare a comprehensive report on all shareholders' meetings and send it to all shareholders. Our recommendation is that corporations be required to do so. Some of them already do, but there is no requirement to that effect in the bill.

Another suggestion is to reduce the barriers that prevent shareholders from making proposals before and during shareholders' meetings. This suggestion is being made generally rather than by the board or the management of banks exclusively. At this time, a shareholder must hold 5% of the shares of a financial institution or public corporation or have control to be entitled to present candidates as directors on the board.

Do members know how much 5% of the Royal Bank shares represents? It represents $900 million. I do not think any members has that much money or has the proposed control of a bank to be able to present candidates. I do not know too many people with that kind of money.

[Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada Act, March 27th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, there is something I did not really understand with the adoption of Motion 3. It would appear that you allowed something, but on this side we did not hear what you said.

[Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada Act, March 27th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to speak to the motions brought forward by the Bloc Quebecois and supported by my colleague for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, who worked very hard on this issue. He submitted a brief on the subject, listened to hundreds of witnesses and also took to heart most of the recommendations made by witness groups.

The problem with this bill, and it was mentioned earlier, has to do with banks with assets totalling under $5 billion.

We are also concerned with the recommendations made by the Association de protection des épargnants et investisseurs du Québec. It submitted a brief at the committee hearings on Bill C-38, which is now called Bill C-8.

The Association de protection des épargnants et investisseurs du Québec then said:

Bank ownership is widely spread in Canada and it is so intended in order to limit a big shareholder's capacity to control one or more financial institutions while these are considered to be public services. Unfortunately, this widespread shareholding has had a perverse effect—

I repeat, “a perverse effect”,

—by leaving way too much influence in the hands of the directors of major banks. This perverse effect could well be eliminated through some legislative changes to the Banking Act.

The Bloc Quebecois supports the recommendations made by the Association de la protection des épargnants et investisseurs du Québec, and that is why we brought forward the motions read earlier. We have moved many more in support of the association, but they were rejected.

The association has made numerous representations to the federal government, to the McKay Commission in 1997, to the Standing Senate Committee on Banking in 1998 and to the House Standing Committee on Finance in November 1998. Despite these many meetings, Bill C-38 and Bill C-8 did not take any of the association's recommendations into account.

For the most part, these recommendations refer to the recommendations made by the association. I would like to quote some of these recommendations if I have enough time, but I know that time flies.

First there is the restriction on the number of boards a director is allowed to sit on at any one time. Our proposal dealt with the restriction on the number of boards a director would be allowed to sit on at any one time. What exists now is the old boys' club rule where “You appoint me, I appoint you, and we appoint each other”.

[Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada Act, March 27th, 2001]

moved:

Motion No. 5

That Bill C-8, in Clause 65, be amended by replacing line 6 on page 32 with the following:

“in whose names the shares are registered in the institution's registers and entitled to receive notice of a meeting under”

[Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada Act, March 27th, 2001]

Madam Speaker, I want to tell you how proud I am that the occupant of the Chair is a woman. Women often have to work really hard to get certain prestigious positions. So, it is always with pride that I take the floor when you are presiding over our proceedings.

First, I would like to say that the Bloc Quebecois supports Bill C-8, and to reassure certain groups, we agree that the bill ought to be passed as quickly as possible so we can have a swift and smooth transition.

Nonetheless, the bill as it stands does not meet all the requirements of certain groups.

The most important thing for Quebec is to protect the largest bank in Quebec, the National Bank. This is a very important concern for our nation. This bank is the Quebec's largest bank, and Quebec businesses have their money there.

This bill will make the National Bank more vulnerable than the big Canadian banks, and that is unacceptable. This bill provides for a three tier system, as far as individual control of banks goes.

I would like to explain once more something I have already talked about in the House, and I think I made myself clear at the time. Let me just go over the general concept to show the people who are watching, as well as you, Madam Speaker, what is going on in that system that we want to create and that seems acceptable to us.

As we all know, for the big Canadian banks, the Royal Bank for example, voting shares that one shareholder can own increase from 10 to 20%. So, for banks with assets worth $5 billion or more, one shareholder could own 20% of the bank's shares.

The problem is, however, and this is the case in Quebec, that small banks, those with assets worth less than $5 billion, the Minister of Finance is allowing one shareholder to own up to 65% of the bank's voting shares. This means that one shareholder could purchase 65% of the shares of the National Bank. That individual would control the assets of the Quebec people. It is incredible. Why is there such a difference?

Why is one shareholder allowed to own 20% of the Royal Bank's voting shares, but when it comes to the National Bank, a single shareholder, it could be a foreigner, if he has the money and holds 65% of the bank's voting shares, could decide to transfer the bank's head office, lay people off, transfer the bank's assets, transfer Quebecers' money outside the country because he is a foreigner, and the whole company will be administered in a foreign country?

So, those are the people's concerns. What will happen? In fact, jobs will probably be lost, and it is unacceptable to think that only one individual can manage most of this financial institution's assets. That is why we are denouncing this situation.

However, there was a certain change while this bill was being studied. Mr. Landry, now the Premier of Quebec, made demands that were incorporated in this bill. However these demands are like guidelines on the reclassification of the banks that were included before in schedule 1, banks with equity capital of less than $5 billion, of which the National Bank is one.

The idea was to include these guidelines in the bill, but they remained guidelines. It is a small step, but not enough for us. We must really ensure that these guidelines are incorporated in the bill. I would like to quote some of them:

All transactions involving a reclassification will be evaluated on the basis of merit. It will have to be shown that the operation will add to the bank's growth potential and that it will lead to better customer service.

The guidelines also state:

In determining whether a transaction involving a reclassification is in the public interest, the Minister of Finance shall take into consideration all the factors he considers relevant, including the security and solidity of the bank, the direct and indirect jobs, the location of the decision-making centre and the management of the bank, the needs of consumers, the bank's business and activities and the bank's prospects for the future in the context of world markets.

These elements, as they are not in the bill, may be amended by the minister as he sees fit. This is a matter of concern for us. It is all very nice that these guidelines were accepted, but what bothers us is that they are not included in the bill. They may be respected or not, as the minister sees fit.

The public as well as parliamentarians must put a great deal of trust in the minister right now, because he tells us is completely sincere. However if a new minister comes along, because ministers do change, whose philosophy is different from that of the current minister who wants us to trust him, how could we be sure that what we ask this new minister with a different philosophy will be respected? It is very important that this be included in the bill.

This process has to become more transparent and it should not cause us any more problem. Right now, there is something of a sword of Damocles over the National Bank because everything is up to the minister and nothing is set out in the bill. If it were, we could always refer to the legislation to show what the intent was, but it is not the case.

As I said earlier, we support the bill. We have worked very hard. My colleague from St-Hyacinthe—Bagot has even tabled a brief with the committee. He has put forward points that were included in the bill. However, we feel that we have been elected to protect the interests of Quebec consumers in our ridings. We are somewhat concerned right now, and when I say somewhat, I really mean to say that we are very concerned about the situation in which this bill puts the National Bank and the small banks with less than $5 billion in capital.

I raise the issue, but this is a concern not only for members of the Bloc Quebecois, but also for the directors of the National Bank. In view of this, the National Bank decided a few weeks ago to adopt a series of rules in order to prevent a hostile takeover at its expense. Looking for strategic partners, the president of the National Bank said that maintaining the head office in Montreal was simply not negotiable.

The shareholders passed two resolutions to protect the National Bank against a hostile bid. They agreed to drag things out so the directors would have more time to examine other bids. They also agreed to drop the limit on the number of common shares that could be issued by the bank. These measures clearly illustrated the concerns generated by the new environment.

With this bill, the Minister of Finance is giving himself the power to determine at his discretion, the future of Quebec's major banks. As I mentioned before, we find it unacceptable that this discretionary power has such sway, more even than the law itself.

In concluding, I would like to say once again that we will support this bill, but we would like the Minister of Finance to take into account the concerns of Quebecers and of the members of the Bloc Quebecois.

[Semaine D'Action Contre Le Racisme, March 19th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, the Quebec semaine d'action contre le racisme, a week of action to fight racism, represents a fine opportunity to think about ways to show greater tolerance toward cultural communities and to tighten the links among Quebecers of all backgrounds.

Over the years, the laws have changed, but the battle against racism has yet to be won. Unfortunately, racism is a hateful and contagious evil that continues to grow around the world. It wounds and denies the right to full enjoyment of life.

In our daily struggle to eliminate obstacles to equality among all human beings, the question of race discrimination is put to everyone. We must all work together to make our society fairer and more democratic. We must carry on this fight at the individual and the community levels, by sharing our values of mutual help and solidarity with cultural communities.

I wish everyone a fine week of intercultural discovery.

[Human Cloning, March 15th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, on Friday, Radio-Canada announced that the leader of an international team of experts on fertility had just announced in Rome that his group would produce the first human clone.

These researchers are apparently in a secret location for security reasons. The firm has unlimited financial resources and an impressive bank of volunteers.

The current legal void in Canada with respect to genetic engineering could attract to Canada megalomaniacs with financial interests, expelled from other western countries under restrictive legislation, because human cloning is prohibited in almost every country of Europe, with the exception of Great Britain.

Has the Government of Canada decided to let itself be dragged along by foreign legislation or will it find the courage to take a stand in a debate that calls into question the very nature of the human being?

[Free Trade Area Of The Americas, March 12th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, will the Minister for International Trade, this supposedly great champion of transparency, pledge to present a proposal at the next meeting of the task force, in Buenos Aires, to seek the authorization of the 34 participating states to make the texts of the nine negotiating tables public?