Madam Speaker, I am thrilled to hear some of the comments the hon. member opposite made congratulating the Nisga'a people for the work they have done.
I also want to pay special tribute to the hon. member who spoke just a minute ago. I found myself very much in sympathy with lifting the level of debate to issues that go beyond some of what I would like to call the stuff of the treaty. I think the issue is far deeper and far more significant than that. I recognize that the hon. member has also recognized that and is coming to grips with it.
I also need to make a point and put on the record my utter and complete disassociation from what I believe the hon. member for Winnipeg Centre suggested, that somehow I or my colleagues are associated with B.C. FIRE. Let it be absolutely clear that we are not associated or in any way connected with it.
He also referred to a particular gentleman who may have at one time worked for an MP. It should also be known that he is not working for an MP and that there is absolutely no way that I or any of my colleagues, to the best of my knowledge, are in any way associated with that particular organization. I really want to underscore that because my heart goes out to the way in which the aboriginal people in Canada have been treated.
The hon. member for Western Arctic spoke from her heart and I really appreciate that. I have met a number of aboriginal people and they have not had a treaty. The Nisga'a people have not had a treaty. It is good that they do have a treaty. They have negotiated for many years and they have negotiated well. In fact, I think they have negotiated a little bit too well in some areas, but that is another issue.
I want to lift this beyond the complicating factors: that the boundaries are in dispute; that there are three bands that want the same land; that the B.C. Legislature made a mockery of the democratic process by cutting the debate; and, that there is uncertainty about the constitutional implications. I do not want to get into that too much because I do not think that is the primary issue here. I agree with the hon. secretary when he says that constitutional amendments are probably not required. That may well be the case. I think the issue is the implications of the provisions in the constitution and the provisions in the treaty itself. That is not clear right now. It is before the courts at the moment.
I really want to focus on two issues: democracy and citizenship. The first issue is about democracy and the business of accountability. I am going to put democracy or democratic accountability close together. It seems to me that there are four characteristics of a democracy.
The first principle of a good democratic organization is that there must be the substance of a genuine control of the leadership by those who are governed. That means that there has to be representation and the representation is selected by election and not by heredity. This is a very interesting concept.
I think it was way back in 1215 when the Magna Carta was passed and where King John, I think it was, was denied his divine right to be king. There has been nothing in our democratic process since that time that would suggest that we have the right to be somewhere simply because of a certain heredity in terms of the way we want to govern ourselves. The whole democracy of our country today rests on the fact of one person, one vote.
The other part of that is that we are equal. We are different. Madam Speaker, you and I are different. I am different from any other member of the House, but before the law of this land and for the constitution that governs us in our noble institution here, we are equal. I think that is desirable.
The second principle is that there must be a clear and accurate information flow so that on matters of public importance we know what is going on. Let us take, for example, the issue of the conflict in Kosovo right now. We need accurate and complete information in order to make good decisions about that.
The third principle is that there must be regular opportunities to vote on who shall lead us. That does happen in the House and that needs to happen. People will argue that those three principles are indeed contained in the treaty, and I am not going to argue that they are not. However, I will come to grips with the fourth principle, which is that we must have the ability for a free vote.
I would suggest that there is a particular difficulty in this treaty because we are dealing with a very small government with very large powers. The Nisga'a Council will have very large powers but will have difficulty providing an honest free vote.
I want to quote an analysis that was done by Gordon Gibson. I want to get into some detail here:
Small governments with large powers may acquire the ability to control citizens rather than vice versa...Top down control is easier in small situations. This is a worldwide phenomenon, totally independent of culture.
The proposed Nisga'a government, a small one, would have very large powers. What are they? Because most cash resources in the economy will flow through the Nisga'a government by virtue of the terms of the treaty, people will be uncommonly dependent upon and beholden to that government. The dependence will not merely be for municipal type services, but also for matters of intense and immediate importance to the individuals concerned; matters such as housing, social assistance and even employment.
The Nisga'a state will control so many things. Health and education will presumably be available to all, but higher education and extraordinary health measures will be rationed and discretionary, as they always are. There will be strong and obvious incentives for citizens of this government to go along with those in power in order to get on with their lives.
The problem of democratic accountability is escalated because the Nisga'a government will largely be using other people's money through federal and provincial transfers flowing through the Nisga'a state. Is this in any way an aspersion on the Nisga'a? It is not. When local taxpayers pay the bills, they have a powerful incentive to control their governments, and that applies to all of us as well as it does to anyone else. When bills are paid by outsiders instead, the locally governed have every incentive to conspire with the local government to extract maximum gain from external sources rather than prudently use the available resources.
Madam Speaker, you know as well as most people that people manage their own money a little more carefully than they manage money which belongs to others. Sometimes that is not the case, but usually it is.
Tom Flanagan from the University of Calgary stated this very well when he said: “Just as you shouldn't have taxation without representation, nor are you likely to get good representation without full taxation”. It works both ways. So much for democratic accountability. I have just touched the surface on the whole question of democracy.
I want to briefly discuss the issue of citizenship. Citizenship under the Nisga'a treaty is determined on a hereditary basis, not on the basis of residence. Voting is on that basis. Only Nisga'a citizens may vote. It is a birth right which allows them to vote under this treaty. That does not exist anywhere else in Canada. In Canada it is determined upon where people reside. That is a fundamental principle.
Now we have a situation where there are Nisga'a who reside on Nisga'a land and Nisga'a who reside off Nisga'a land. Both of these groups have the right to vote. However, those who reside off the land can only vote for three councillors, yet there are 30. There is disproportionate representation for those who are off the land and those who are on the land. In effect it creates two classes of Nisga'a citizens.
That is not all it does. There are other rights and privileges given on the basis of the constitution to the Nisga'a people that are not given to other Canadians. We have three classes of citizens. We have two classes of Nisga'a and then there is a difference between all Nisga'a people and other Canadians. We should be equal before the law. We should not create separate citizenship questions.
This is just the beginning. I encourage the House to give very serious debate to these issues. They are at the root of and are the fundamental basis of what needs to happen in terms of giving all people in Canada the right to vote, the right to be represented equally and responsibly, and the right to be in control of their own affairs.