Dave Chatters

[Nisga'A Final Agreement Act, December 6th, 1999]

moved:

Motion No. 117

That Bill C-9, in Clause 14, be amended by replacing lines 34 and 35 on page 5 with the following:

“part of the Nisga'a Agreement and neither of them confer any new rights within”

[Nisga'A Final Agreement Act, December 6th, 1999]

moved:

Motion No. 99

That Bill C-9 be amended by deleting Clause 13.

[Nisga'A Final Agreement Act, December 6th, 1999]

moved:

Motion No. 97

That Bill C-9, in Clause 12, be amended by replacing lines 39 to 42 on page 4 with the following:

“(2) A copy of a Nisga'a law shall be deposited in the public registry of Nisga'a laws and is”

[Nisga'A Final Agreement Act, December 6th, 1999]

moved:

Motion No. 45

That Bill C-9 be amended by deleting Clause 4.

[Nisga'A Final Agreement Act, December 6th, 1999]

moved:

Motion No. 43

That Bill C-9 be amended by deleting Clause 3.

[Nisga'A Final Agreement Act, December 2nd, 1999]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to join in this debate. Primarily this morning and this afternoon speakers from our side have been from British Columbia, and rightly so. The Nisga'a agreement is first and foremost of concern to British Columbians but that is not exclusive.

Some two years ago the former minister of Indian affairs landed in my riding and reopened one of the traditional treaties, Treaty No. 8, for renegotiation and what is termed modernization of the treaty. The Nisga'a agreement gives us a glimpse of what the government's concept of a modern day treaty will be and entrenches that concept in the constitution of Canada.

I think that my constituents and those in other parts of Canada should pay attention and have a vested interest because the whole movement to entrench self-government in modern day treaties will at some point in time affect them just as it is now affecting British Columbia. On that basis I am pleased to raise my concerns on the Nisga'a deal.

In a Supreme Court of Canada decision in the Lord Elgin Hotel case the court says that the constitution of Canada does not belong to parliament. Nor does it belong to the provincial legislatures. It belongs to the people of Canada. What we are talking about here is modifying the constitution without due consideration by all involved members.

This is primarily a constitutional change by the government without due consideration for the others involved, namely the Nisga'a people, British Columbians and Canadians. I do not believe that this piece of legislation acts in the best interests of any of the involved parties. Although it claims to present the Nisga'a with greater freedoms, it will in fact entrench greater controls on their society as a whole.

The legislation will act as a template for up to 50 other treaty negotiations within British Columbia. As I said, after British Columbia it may very well be the template for modernizing the traditional treaties that have existing for 100 years in this country.

To ignore the needs of the Nisga'a could result in numerous other treaties that drastically diminish the rights of other bands across the country. For the sake of the Nisga'a and for other bands who entering into negotiations, this cannot happen. It behoves us to get this first treaty right so that it deals fairly with everybody involved.

Currently within the Nisga'a final agreement, the rights of the Nisga'a people granted under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms may be substantially diminished. I would refer the House to the fact that the treaty grants supreme legislative authority in at least 14 areas, so parliament or the provincial legislature cannot ever override Nisga'a law in these areas. Quite frankly, that makes me nervous and should make others in this country nervous.

As well, section 3 of the treaty expressly states that the entire agreement, including the self-government powers that I just mentioned, are to be defined as aboriginal and treaty rights within the meaning of section 35 of the constitution. As our critic pointed out this morning, that is one of the major concerns we have with this treaty.

Section 25 of the constitution requires courts to give higher weighting to these section 35 aboriginal rights, which are of course collective rights over their charter rights. What this means in simple terms is that the collective rights of the Nisga'a government, including its vast legislative powers, can most definitely be used to overpower the individual charter rights of rank and file Nisga'a members.

Ideally, such a situation would never be of concern, and we want to believe that the individual rights of Nisga'a people will never be in jeopardy or compromised, but is it really wise to pass legislation that is based on the mere assumption of fair treatment. History would say otherwise.

Can the government absolutely guarantee that at no time in the future will the individual rights of members of the Nisga'a band come into conflict with the collective rights of the Nisga'a government. I do not believe that such a promise can possibly be made and, because of this, section 3 of Bill C-9 must not go forward in its present form. The rights of present and future Nisga'a are far too important to disregard them on a wish and a prayer.

If this treaty is enacted, effectively a third level of government will be formed that is created exclusively along ethnic lines. It seems to me that this is another dangerous precedent that this legislation will set. The Nisga'a government will hold absolute control in 14 areas and share jurisdiction in 16 fields. Because these powers will be entrenched in a treaty, it will amount to a third order of government in Canada.

Members from other parties in the House have claimed that the Nisga'a government would be municipal in nature and that it conforms to the constitution. In at least 14 specific areas of the treaty, the treaty reads “in the event of an inconsistency or conflict between a Nisga'a law under this paragraph and a federal or provincial law, the Nisga'a law prevails to the extent of the inconsistency or conflict.”

When this ruling applies to areas such as health services, chapter 11, paragraph 84, page 174 of the agreement; child and family services, chapter 11, paragraph 89, page 174; and adoption, chapter 11, paragraph 96, page 175, the ramifications are staggering. It is obvious that under these arrangements the federal and provincial governments are proposing to permanently cede legislative authority. No municipal government in this country has the powers that even approach the levels of the Nisga'a government.

The creation of a third order of government also raises constitutional questions, for what this treaty proposes is to amend the constitution without due process or regard.

Section 91 and 92 of our constitution thoroughly divides legislative powers in Canada between the federal and provincial governments. Without amending the constitution, the federal government and B.C. do not have the right to cede legislative authority to the Nisga'a government. In order to amend the constitution, a referendum would automatically occur in British Columbia which, as we have heard, has not happened and will not likely happen.

I mentioned at the beginning of my comments that our constitution does not belong to parliament or the law makers. It belongs to the people of Canada. Only with the consent of Canadians can legislative authority be changed or ceded. However, the government is completely ignoring the constitution in its rush to approve this treaty. In doing so, it is doing a great disservice to all Canadians.

Until this point in my comments, I have focused primarily on how Bill C-9 is an irresponsible piece of legislation due to how it will impact on the Nisga'a people. However, Canada is an interconnected nation and what affects one group of people inevitably and strongly impacts on us all.

The reality is that in its present state, the Nisga'a treaty will grant the Nisga'a band collective ownership of 1,992 square kilometres of land in the Nass Valley. An additional 10,000 square kilometre area is designated as the Nisga'a wildlife management area, and access by forestry and mining concerns to this area may be seriously restricted or cut off. The Nisga'a will also be granted a priority commercial fishing allocation on the Nass River. If future negotiations take the same path as the Nisga'a treaty, it could result in 50 or more governments in British Columbia. This is an area that would also transfer certainly with concerns to my part of Canada, the northern part of Alberta, and how such an agreement would impact on the provincial ownership and management of resources.

In recent weeks, months and years efforts have been made by the aboriginal groups in my area to gain exactly this same kind of control over what they term as traditional territory and will have huge impacts on natural resource management and development in that area.

This lack of consistency that we see in this particular section in how the province is governed will have ramifications for economic development not only in British Columbia but also in Alberta and other provinces in Canada. Long term development of natural resources may be impeded, causing long range impacts that will affect all British Columbians and Canadians from coast to coast in the country.

Canadians as a whole also face serious impacts should this treaty go through as it presently exists. The federal government has estimated the total cost of the Nisga'a deal at around $490 million. This includes $312 million in cash costs and $178 million in land and other costs. In addition, the Nisga'a government will receive $32.1 million annually in perpetuity under the deal. These are federal figures but, as we have seen time and time again in the House, the real figures are generally much higher. Many experts estimate that the cost will be much higher and possibly well over $1 billion.

I have several more points to make but I will have other opportunities in other groupings of amendments and I will continue my comments at that point.

[Nisga'A Final Agreement Act, December 2nd, 1999]

moved:

Motion No. 30

That Bill C-9, in Clause 1, be amended by replacing line 2 on page 2 with the following:

“Final Agreement Implementation Act.”

[Nisga'A Final Agreement Act, December 2nd, 1999]

moved:

Motion No. 22

That Bill C-9, in the preamble, be amended by replacing line 15 on page 1 with the following:

“new and improved relationship among them;”

[Petitions, December 1st, 1999]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to table two petitions today signed by people mostly from the community of Westlock in my riding.

The petitioners object to the deplorable failure of the government to protect children from the exploitation and abuse of those who produce child pornography and to introduce the notwithstanding clause to bring back subparagraph 163.1(4) of the criminal code.

[Canadian Institutes Of Health Research Act, November 29th, 1999]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise to add my voice to the concerns being expressed on Bill C-13. I too, as the previous speaker suggested, welcome this as at least a step in the right direction. It is a turnaround from cutting money from medical research to at least adding funds. However, I have some concerns. It is a bit ironic because my concerns are very similar to those of the previous speaker. He has sort of stolen my thunder on some of the issues.

It is fairly safe to assume that all members from all parties only want what is in the best interests of the continued health of Canadians. We are very fortunate, particularly in my part of Canada, to have access to clean water, clean air, wide open spaces and what traditionally has been considered one of the best health care systems in the world, although that is up for debate these days. While this bill addresses one side of what constitutes the best health care system in the world, on the other side, the delivery of health care, the federal government has yet to address its responsibility in any meaningful way. We hope that somewhere down the road it will do that.

Although we have access to the healthiest environment in the world, we still have a responsibility to Canadians, as well as to the rest of the world, to ensure that we have up to date research to keep Canadians as healthy as possible.

It is in this light that the Canadian institutes of health research must be considered, as the object of the CIHR is to excel according to internationally accepted standards of scientific excellence in the creation of new knowledge and its Translation into improved health for Canadians. It also intends to provide more effective health services and products for a strengthened Canadian health care system. As I said, this is only one prong of what constitutes a strengthened health care system. Finally, the CIHR is to replace the Medical Research Council and provide a more direct and systemic approach to research in Canada.

Canada has a long and proud history of excellence in medical research. For example, in 1873 Sir William Osler demonstrated that unidentified bodies in human blood were in fact a third kind of blood corpuscles which were later named blood platelets. This discovery was invaluable to future studies in areas such as leukemia, cancer treatment, anemia and the treatment of virtually any medical problem.

Another Canadian physician of note was Sir Frederick Banting, who in 1921, along with Charles Best, was the first to extract insulin from the pancreas. Injections of insulin proved to be the first effective treatment for diabetes. For his discovery, Banting was awarded a share of the 1923 Nobel prize for physiology or medicine.

I bring up those two examples for a good reason. They were enormous breakthroughs in medical research made by Canadians and shared with the rest of the world at no cost to the rest of the world's medical research community.

Knowing that I was going to address this subject today, while flying back from my riding this morning I noted an article in the National Post . Medical researchers in Britain announced that they have completely decoded chromosome number 22. Certainly that is a major, major breakthrough in medical research. The decoding of not only chromosome 22 but of all the 23 chromosomes that make up the human cell is the key to answering the dilemmas we have had in reaching cures for cancer and particularly regarding chromosome 22, many of the hereditary diseases that we face today. It has amazing possibilities.

The concern I had with the article was that both British and U.S. medical researchers have been working on this project for a long time in a race to be successful in mapping these genes and chromosomes, not necessarily on a humane basis but rather on a commercial basis. The intent at least of the U.S. organization that is doing this research is to achieve success before the rest of the world in order to patent the process and sell it on a commercial basis.

It should be a real concern to everyone around the world if that is the direction medical research is going in. With tremendous breakthroughs like Banting or others in Canada have made, if that knowledge, that ability to cure diseases becomes a commercial entity to be sold around the world for the most money to the highest bidder, that is probably quite a change in the traditional direction in medical research. It certainly concerns me.

As a cancer survivor myself, I very much look forward to the day when research allows us to cure diseases like cancer at a reasonable cost to those who suffer from these diseases. The concern is that if we are going in the direction of commercialization, the cost of treatment and cures will be out of reach to ordinary Canadians. I wandered off my topic a little bit, but that article caught my eye and was of concern to me.

We support the concept behind the bill. The idea that we are turning the direction, putting more money in to increasing facilities and funding for health care and, as others before me have suggested, addressing the brain drain issue and the need to attract and retain Canada's youngest and brightest researchers is certainly a worthwhile effort.

The CIHR would initiate a clear and concise strategic yearly plan with the sole intention of promoting research in the fields of health and science. The CIHR would make researchers accountable for all budgetary expenditures and report on a yearly basis to an overseeing committee of their peers to assess their progress. That certainly is a laudable goal considering what the history of funding for medical research has been in the country.

The creation of the CIHR would account for only a 4% to 5% total administrative cost. The estimated yearly administrative costs for the CIHR would also only account for 4% or 5% of the yearly budget.

As far as accountability to parliament is concerned, an annual review would be issued and the agency would be subject to an independent audit through the auditor general's office. It is encouraging to see that the government takes accountability and reporting measures seriously for a change, particularly when we compare these measures to the current system of non-accountability administered by the Medical Research Council.

I do have some concerns however with this bill that I would like to mention. With the time being short I will try to rush through them.

One of the concerns is the intent of the CIHR to foster scientific research and promote Canadian initiatives without taking the time to consult various scientific communities to receive input as to the scope and area of research. As any good scientist knows, when conducting a scientific experiment one must accumulate all related information and research before actually beginning the experiment. To not investigate all aspects of a hypothesis makes for foolhardy science. That would certainly be a shame.

Because of the shortness of time, I will move on to my conclusion. There are many goods parts to the bill. It appears to be an excellent model of an institute that will remain at arm's length from the federal government and conduct research independent from the government. The consultation process for appointments will draw on leading experts from every conceivable field of expertise. This should reduce the influence of high ranking government officials. That can only happen and be successful if those appointments actually follow the process that is spelled out in the bill which may not happen.

Before the bill passes, I would ask that the government consult the scientific and health communities for input as to the direction of the Canadian institutes of health research.