Crucial Fact

  • His favourite word was court.

Last in Parliament October 2000, as Reform MP for Crowfoot (Alberta)

Lost his last election, in 2000, with 6% of the vote.

Statements in the House

Speech From The Throne September 26th, 1997

Madam Speaker, I too would like to congratulate you on your appointment and I can assure you that you will certainly get as much co-operation as we are able to muster in this House for your administration of the affairs of this House in the days to come.

I rise today in response to the Speech from the Throne. Nothing in that speech assures me or the people of this country that the integrity of Canada's justice system will be restored by the government or the new justice minister.

Many areas in justice should have been addressed in the throne speech but were not. We could look at the need for the reform of the Young Offenders Act, the elimination of the faint hope clause, exempting violent offenders from conditional sentencing and, of course, a victims' bill of rights. These are all issues of great concern to Canadians and issues which Reform intend to pursue with vigour in this session of Parliament.

According to a July 1997 Angus Reid poll, 52% of Canadians have lost faith in our courts and our justice system. This is a serious matter. Why have so many Canadians lost faith in our justice system and particularly our courts? That is the question I would like to focus my remarks on today.

Canadians' faith in our justice system can only be further shattered by the scandalous affair perpetrated by senior officials within the justice department, aided and abetted by the federal court and concealed from the people of this country by the intentional ignoring or oversight of the facts by the former justice minister and the Hon. Charles Dubin.

In 1996 a series of indiscretions were committed by Associate Deputy Attorney General Ted Thompson who deliberately and knowingly interfered with the judicial independence of Associate Chief Justice Jerome who was conducting a hearing into the deportation orders of three suspected Nazi war criminals.

In an attempt to protect his close friend from embarrassment, Ted Thompson telephoned Chief Justice Isaac to warn him of the proposed supreme court reference. The chief justice of the federal court and Judge Jerome's administrative superior arranged for Mr. Thompson to meet with him in his chambers to discuss the matter further. An exchange of letters ensued in which Thompson outlined the chronology of the court delays on the three cases. This was all done without the knowledge of defence counsel.

Chief Justice Isaac then called Judge Jerome to a meeting and advised him of the threat of a supreme court reference if the pace of the hearings into the three deportation cases did not pick up. With Judge Jerome's assistance, Chief Justice Isaac responded to Mr. Thompson's letter assuring the assistant deputy the cases would be expedited. “I have discussed your concerns with the associate chief justice and like me he is prepared to take all reasonable steps possible to avoid a reference to the Supreme Court of Canada on these matters.” This too was done without the knowledge of defence counsel.

Following this horrendous act of interference into the judicial independence of Judge Jerome, justice department officials sought to minimize the damage by deliberately creating a false scenario designed to mislead defence counsel and Canadians into believing that Ted Thompson has approached Chief Justice Isaac for the innocent purpose of discussing the scheduling of 12 future deportation cases and had inadvertently discussed the three deportation cases being handled by Judge Jerome.

In an effort to cover up this deceit, these justice officials recognized the need to keep Ted Thompson from testifying when a motion for a stay of proceedings was entered on the basis of political interference into the judicial independence of the court. This deceit and the object of deceit is revealed in secret justice department documents which justice officials were ordered to file in the Supreme Court of Canada. One of these documents is a memo to Mr. John Sims, the assistant deputy attorney general responsible for citizenship and immigration dated May 10, 1996, from Mr. Chris Amerasinghe, senior general counsel for the Attorney General of Canada.

Mr. Amerasinghe states in his memo that if Ted Thompson testified in court “The damage done to the image of the department, the attorney general and the court will be incalculable for all time and the consequences could be far reaching, going far beyond the immediate concern for these three cases. It could precipitate the resignations of the minister and the chief justice. More importantly, the reputation of the government and the court will be irreparably damaged if all the evidence were to come out.”

The contents of this one secret document alone is shocking and beyond belief, yet it gets worse.

In a second memo dated May 12, 1996 Mr. Amerasinghe states:

Unfortunately there are several problems in calling Ted Thompson—Bayne—one of the Defence Counsel—will soon realize the extent of the friendship between Ted Thompson and the Chief Justice and will be able to demonstrate that the real reason Ted went to see the Chief Justice was to alert his close friend to an impending Reference which would embarrass the Chief Justice and seek ways of avoiding it, and that the story about the concern for the 12 cases was false and is a cover-up.

Justice officials were not the only ones who advised Thompson not to testify. During a private conversation in Montreal in early May, Judge Jerome provided Thompson with the same legal advice, not to submit an affidavit. Chief Justice Isaac was at the same Montreal rules committee meeting, again an unbelievable revelation.

As unbelievable as this is, Mr. Amerasinghe clearly and accurately describes the story being put forward by the justice department as false and a cover up, and this assessment is not denied by any justice official in the documents filed with the Supreme Court of Canada.

The most outrageous and reprehensible part of this whole scandal is the realization that this false story, this cover up, was extended either knowingly or unknowingly into the House of Commons by the former justice minister who on May 29, 1996 said this in Hansard regarding the meeting between Thompson and Isaac: “The meeting was for the purpose initially of discussing concerns with the pace of litigation generally in the federal court”.

The former justice minister is here parroting the false story and cover up detailed by Mr. Amerasinghe in a secret memo to John Sims. Mr. Amerasinghe said in relation to Ted Thompson's motives and the real reason for approaching his friend was not to discuss general administrative matters but to alert his close personal friend of the proposed supreme court reference which would embarrass Chief Justice Isaac who had been working to improve the reputation of the federal court.

I invite all Canadians to look at the facts, to review the evidence. I am confident a reasonable person would reach the same shocking conclusions. I am confident ordinary Canadians would recognize that aspects of what the former justice minister reported in this House were incorrect and misleading and that the finding of Charles Dubin concerning the conduct of Ted Thompson is at best deficient and at worst a deliberate whitewash as he had access to all the damning information contained in the documents filed in the supreme court, and that the Canadian Judicial Council's examination of the conduct of Chief Justice Isaac is also inadequate and deficient. However, this was to be expected, given that the council did not have access to all the information contained in the secret and confidential justice department documents that were later filed with the Supreme Court of Canada.

It appears that the Canadian Judicial Council depended solely on the word of Chief Justice Isaac who told them among other things that he never discussed Judge Jerome recusing himself from the cases, although the justice documents say exactly the opposite.

Yesterday the Supreme Court of Canada, although dismissing the stay of proceedings motion, clearly stated that both Chief Justice Isaac and Associate Chief Justice Jerome were tainted by this affair and should have nothing further to do with these cases.

What are Canadians to think when they witness this type of conduct from our justice officials and our judges, the very people entrusted to protect our rights and freedoms and who are to uphold the rule of law to the very highest standards? What are they to think when they see pertinent information being withheld from the Canadian Judicial Council, the one body entrusted to ensure that courts and judges remain independent of outside pressures so citizens can rely on the fact that they will receive fair and impartial hearings? What are they to think when they hear and see this kind of conduct on the part of these officials? What are Canadians to think when they hear all the damning evidence which clearly points to such inappropriate conduct? And there is more.

In a secret memo to John Sims, the Assistant Deputy Attorney General, dated December 14, 1995, Chris Amerasinghe states this:

I am appalled at the irresponsible manner in which the associate chief justice, who is responsible for the proper functioning of the federal court trial division conducts the business of the court. It is a travesty of justice that these cases proceed at a snail's pace and that Jerome acquiesces in every attempt by counsel for the respondents to delay them rather than pushing counsel to deal with them speedily. He does not seem to care what happens. Apparently the Chief Justice of the Federal Court either has no power to influence the conduct of the Associate Chief Justice or does not wish to do so.

Mr. Amerasinghe attributed the associate chief justice's behaviour to the state of his health. I quote from the same memo:

He appeared to be misled as to the nature to the privilege which we were claiming—the rather disjointed manner in which he spoke caused me serious concern as to the state of his health. More disturbing was the fact that he did not appear to appreciate that Bayne was misleading him as to the law.

These comments are not only in contempt of Judge Jerome and his court, they are designed to spread this contempt into the minds of anyone who read them, including the Assistant Deputy Attorney General of Canada, John Sims. So bitter was Amerasinghe's attack on Judge Jerome that John Sims blacked out those portions of Amerasinghe's memo before he passed it on to the members of the litigation committee.

If Mr. Amerasinghe had justification for his attack on Judge Jerome, the proper body to take it before was the Judicial Council of Canada, instead of sowing seeds of contempt in the minds of his superiors within the Department of Justice and yet that is exactly what he did. It is outrageous and unacceptable that this has happened within the highest levels of the justice department.

In the words of a defence counsel before the Supreme Court of Canada, the Department of Justice, the former minister of justice and the Hon. Charles Dubin exacerbated Ted Thompson's flagrant breach of judicial independence with their “concerted pattern of lack of candour and outright deception”.

On May the 29, 1996 the former justice minister stood in this House and stated:

I want to note at the outset that as soon as the department became aware that Mr. Thompson and Chief Justice Isaac had met, and as soon as the correspondence came to light, the department provided copies of that correspondence to the lawyers acting for the three persons involved in the revocation cases pending before the Federal Court.

The minister's statement was wrong and is wrong. Counsel for the applicants received copies of the correspondence on March 7, 1996. Yet we know from Mr. Amerasinghe's diary notes and from an e-mail dated March 1, 1996 addressed to Mr. John Sims from Mr. Amerasinghe both these men knew of Thompson's letter six days before it was forwarded to counsel.

I phoned Ted Thompson's office and was told by his secretary that he had written to Julius Isaac. I have no doubt he will advise you.

The contents of faxed messages between Mr. Amerasinghe, Mr. John Sims and the deputy attorney general clearly reveal that these officials were aware of this issue or problem days before the letters were sent to defence counsel and is a direct contradiction to what the former justice minister stated in this House.

The former justice minister not only submitted information that mislead the House of the facts of this case, he also withheld information for almost three months regarding this matter.

Ted Thompson committed this breach of judicial independence on March 1, 1996 and yet it was not brought to the floor of the House until the end of May of that same year. Why was this matter not reported the moment the minister knew of it? Why did he wait until the matter became a subject of public interest in the media before he notified the House of what was happening within his department? That is unacceptable and is shameful. It is shameful that the former minister stood in this House on more that one occasion and stated:

From the moment that it came to the attention of the justice officials that Ted Thompson had been to see the chief justice, steps were taken to find out exactly what happened, to get copies of the correspondence and put them in the hands of the lawyers involved in the three cases.

Yet we waited for three months before he notified us of what was going on within his department. It is unacceptable that the former justice minister refused to remove Ted Thompson for his professional and unethical misconduct despite Reform urging him to do so. It was the only proper course of action to clear the air and assure Canadians that the justice department is not staffed by individuals who will violate the judicial independence of our courts. Instead the minister turned the matter over to the former chief justice of Ontario, Charles Dubin, a person, and I quote the minister, “whose experience and integrity in such matters is beyond question”.

On October 1, 1996 the minister publicly embraced Mr. Dubin's findings when he stated “We took the trouble to have a person of unquestioned reputation look carefully through all the facts of this matter. He took the trouble to look through all the facts carefully, speak to the people involved, examine the documents and consider them carefully in accordance with appropriate principles. He concluded there was no basis to fire Ted Thompson”. I say nonsense. Absolute nonsense.

If the former justice minister believed this, why did he order a new investigation into this issue when the contents of the secret documents filed with the Supreme Court of Canada were made public during the last week of the federal election? Those were the very documents Mr. Dubin had access to during his investigation.

The confidential documents clearly call into question Mr. Dubin's findings and suggest an enormous deficiency in his conclusions and in his recommendation that left Ted Thompson within the justice department.

In my opinion, Mr. Dubin's report was a whitewash. He completely ignored or glossed over the facts and despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, maintained that Mr. Thompson's conduct although inappropriate was properly motivated and within his jurisdiction. Throughout his report he maintains the charade that Mr. Thompson's meeting was to discuss general administrative matters involving 12 pending revocation cases and that three current cases were mentioned inadvertently. This is a false story and a cover-up described within Mr. Amerasinghe's internal documents to his superiors.

Ted Thompson and Chief Justice Isaac committed one of the most serious breaches of judicial interference ever experienced in this country. The true facts surrounding this enormous violation have been ignored and some say covered up and have just been revealed recently.

In the words of defence counsel quoting Lord Denning, “Had this occurred in England, it would have brought down the government”. But not in Canada because in Canada political interference in the judicial process has become a way of life and the hallmark of the Liberal government.

We witnessed political interference in the Airbus affair and in the Krever inquiry. Can we imagine setting up an inquiry such as the Krever inquiry and then creating legal roadblocks, as it has done, interfering with Krever's mandate.

Then there was the Pearson airport contract. A bill was rammed through the House which denied the injured people due process to file a grievance within our justice system.

In the Somalia inquiry not only was there interference, it stopped the inquiry completely. There was not only political interference, the judicial process was stopped completely and Canadians were denied the full facts and truth about the horrible wrongdoing and cover-up within the Canadian military.

Is it any wonder that over 50% of Canadians have lost faith in our courts and in our justice system after witnessing the arrogant attitude that tampering with justice and the rule of law is acceptable. And if you get caught, nothing happens.

In the case of Mr. Thompson, he was transferred to somewhere else in the department. The Prime Minister moved the former justice minister out of justice and into health and this House cannot hold him accountable for the scandal which he has left in the justice department.

In summation of this scandalous affair, it is clear that this all occurred because these people did not want to suffer the embarrassment of a reference to the Supreme Court of Canada. They chose instead to violate the independence and the impartiality of the courts and betray the faith and trust of Canadians.

These people have to go. They do not belong in our justice system. They have proven by their actions that they are unworthy of belonging in our justice system.

In view of this terrible government interference which runs like a current through our justice system on a regular basis, I have forwarded a complaint to the Law Society of Upper Canada asking for an immediate investigation into the conduct of Ted Thompson, John Sims and Chris Amerasinghe. In the light of yesterday's Supreme Court remarks regarding Isaac and Jerome, I have also written to the Canadian Judicial Council requesting a more thorough review of Chief Justice Isaac's actions as well as an examination of the conduct of Associate Chief Justice Jerome as referenced in the justice department documents filed in the Supreme Court of Canada.

Justice September 25th, 1997

Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for her response. One of her own officials stated that if the real story were revealed “the damage done to the image of the department, the attorney general and the court will be incalculable for all time and the consequences could precipitate the resignations of the minister and the chief justice”.

Again, will the justice minister immediately dismiss those involved in what her own official described as a false story and a cover-up?

Justice September 25th, 1997

Mr. Speaker, today the Supreme Court of Canada stated very clearly in a judgment it rendered that the meeting between Ted Thompson and Chief Justice Isaac which occurred on March 1, 1996 was clearly inappropriate and breached the judicial independence of the courts.

Evidence in justice documents filed with the supreme court indicate that a false story and cover-up of this incident were created by senior justice officials. This is unacceptable. In the face of this incriminating evidence and the statements of the supreme court, will the new justice minister immediately dismiss the officials involved in this cover-up?

Justice April 24th, 1997

Mr. Speaker, how in the world could the parliamentary secretary claim they are getting tough on crime when they change the law so that it does not really make any difference if a young killer is transferred from young offenders into adult court? It simply does not make sense.

Nevertheless I have a supplementary question. This 17-year old killer was convicted in 1992, two years before Bill C-41 was passed. This offender was granted the benefit of a law passed retroactively. Yet the justice minister claimed Bill C-45 could not be applied to Clifford Olson because of the principle of retroactivity.

Why does retroactivity apply to killers only when it is in their favour?

Justice April 24th, 1997

Mr. Speaker, in 1992 a 17-year-old was convicted in adult court for the murder of a father of four. He was sentenced to life imprisonment with no parole eligibility for 25 years.

Thanks to the justice minister and Bill C-41, this young offender can be paroled after serving a mere 10 years. That is the Liberal record of getting tough on crime.

My question is for the justice minister. Why send young killers into adult court for adult sentencing when adult penalties do not apply?

Criminal Code April 21st, 1997

Mr. Speaker, we heard quite a bit about this bill today in committee of the whole. I would like to point to something that was not discussed. Underlying the whole question of the new authorities and powers granted in the bill is the fact that the government and the justice system have failed to deal adequately with the trafficking of drugs. They have failed to deal with it to the point where it is now so lucrative that the biker gangs are warring over who will control it.

What has happened over the last 30 years? Our laws have become too soft. The tools have been taken away from our law enforcement agencies to the point where drug trafficking is so absolutely lucrative that gangs are killing one another over the turf. That is what the turf war is all about, the right to control drug trafficking.

What does that say? That is something that has not been discussed. It is a sure indication of the failure of the justice system to protect our families and our children, to protect every Canadian citizen from that kind of influence.

If we go into any public school in this country, particularly high schools, we can see evidence of what the justice system has failed to do, which is to protect our children against those people who would kill in order to make a profit from drugs. They are turning our society into bedlam.

There is drug trafficking in my little city of Camrose. The children in the high schools are becoming addicted because the government and those before it have eroded the criminal justice system. Laws have been changed. The tools have been denied to law enforcement agencies to the point where we are not fighting what we should be fighting, we are fighting the fact that two groups of criminals are fighting over who is going to control the $20 billion drug industry in Canada.

It is a shame. It is a disgrace. That has not been touched on in this debate. It is something people across the country know about. They are talking about it. They are sending petitions to their members of Parliament about it. They are writing to us about the general climate which allows crime to flourish.

When this bill was introduced we knew it could not be passed with the election looming. We knew it could not be brought before

committee and have witnesses come forward on both sides of the issue so that we could understand if there are flaws and weaknesses in the bill. Those weaknesses are on both sides: weaknesses concerning the police and weaknesses in that it might encroach on the rights of innocent people. We knew that we would not have the time to do that, so we had to agree in order to give the police some degree of enhancement of their operations against criminals. We had to rush the bill through.

I talked to some of the police chiefs and others in criminal justice enforcement. They told me that they need this bill, not because it contains such powerful tools for them, but because for the first time we are introducing into the criminal justice system laws dealing with organized crime.

I asked them if this legislation would enable them to solve the offences which are occurring, the bombings and the murders, they were not sure it would. When I asked that question at least one of them quickly changed the subject and pointed to some of the positive aspects of the bill with which I agree.

The extension of wiretapping could have been done two, three, four or five years ago. It should have been done 10 years ago. Then there could have been investigations into drug trafficking and organized crime. It would have given the police the tools they needed to prevent the spread of drug trafficking.

The peace bond is a good idea. That could have been brought in years ago as well. It could have been brought in to deal with organized crime for the very purpose for which it is being brought in now. It was not brought in. Why? I do not know.

The access to income tax records could have been brought in years ago for the specific area of organized crime.

Then we have offence related property. In other words, we are enhancing the powers of the police and the state to seize the avails of crime, but that will only come after an accused has been convicted of a criminal organization offence. Let us look at the possibility of anyone ever being convicted under this new offence that will allow the police and the state to seize the avails of crime. How easy is it going to be?

First, someone has to be convicted of an indictable offence carrying at least a maximum five year penalty. Then the crown has to establish that the individual was part of a crime organization. Four others will have to be brought into the picture to show that they were associating and one of their primary objectives was to commit this kind of crime and that there had been a series of crimes committed by one or more of the group.

Mr. Speaker, you understand the law. You are a lawyer. You understand exactly what I am talking about when I say to Canadians: Do not hold your breath expecting reams of convictions under this new offence. It is not going to happen.

I hope my prediction is wrong. It reminds me a little of Bill C-27 where we passed this wonderful law that is going to discourage pedophiles from going to other countries to have sex with young children. How is the child sex tourism bill going to be enforced?

We had legal minds appear before the committee on Bill C-27 and they told us that it is a wonderful looking bill and that part of it sounds good and might make people feel safer and more assured that the state is doing something about what is happening in other countries by the pedophiles from Canada, but how is it to be enforced?

When I look at the enforceability of this new section, I have grave concerns. Those concerns were not alleviated as a result of my discussion with the police chiefs to whom I spoke. They pointed to other aspects of the bill and the fact that for the first time legislation was being introduced into the Criminal Code dealing with organized crime and they hoped in the years to come it would be expanded on.

The fact of the matter is former governments were supposed to stand on guard for this country. Every Wednesday we sing our national anthem. We promise in that anthem that we stand on guard for thee, Canada and for the citizens who live in this country.

But have they stood on guard? No, they have not. As I said earlier, drug trafficking is so widespread and the police so unable to deal with it, now we are hoping for laws that will be able to deal with the consequences of our laxness in this area. Murders are being committed, innocent people are dying, the criminals are killing one another off in order to gain control over an illicit traffic that should never have developed to the extent that it has. It has and we are facing that now.

I listened to the debates, as short as they were, on this bill. No one, neither the justice minister nor anyone on the government side nor from the Bloc side addressed the underlying cause of the situation that has brought about Bill C-95. Why not?

Have we embraced it? Have we given up? Is the next step to legalize hard drugs? Is that the next step? We see some people advocating the decriminalization of soft drugs. Is that what we are coming to? We have taken powers away from the police over the years, lightened the offences. Why? People say too many people are incarcerated. The jails are full.

The justice minister attacks us and criticizes us for not supporting some of his bills. We support this bill. We do not know everything about the bill that we should know but we are

supporting it. We support good, sound initiatives by this government.

We support it today and we have in the past. The justice minister has attacked us and criticized us for not supporting some of his bills such as Bill C-41.

We are going to go across the country telling the people in the forthcoming election why we did not support Bill C-41. That is because of the alternative measures that are being extended to violent offenders, the conditional sentencing that is now being used by some judges to allow rapists and violent offenders to walk free.

That is why we did not support Bill C-41 and will not support it. We have asked over and over again for the justice minister to bring in a simple amendment that would deny the courts the power, the tools, to allow violent offenders to walk free through this conditional sentencing clause. He refuses to do it.

Therefore we will not be taking this to the people in this forthcoming election, we are taking it to them now and we are showing very clearly that we are prepared to support good legislation but will not support legislation like the Bloc does that allows violent offenders to walk free. We will not support that.

A Reform government will repeal that bill and we will plug the hole that allows the courts in this land to send rapists back on the street after they destroyed the lives of their victims. When we look at this bill and we look at the whole gamut of the justice system and where we have arrived, the justice minister has become so partisan in his answers today that I saw no reason to go any further.

In the forthcoming election the people will be examining his laws. They will be examining his attitude. They will be examining his response to victims and they will vote accordingly.

This government will be weighed and it is going to be found wanting. Certainly anyone who examines the bills that have come through this House over the last 25 or 30 years knows that something has gone wrong. They do not have to examine the bills at all, they simply have to see the consequences of what has happened to our society where two gangs of thugs are fighting over the turf of the illicit drug trafficking that has occurred in this country.

Our criminal justice system has allowed that to happen. If it did not happen, we would not be asking for this kind of a bill. We should have had these tools in the hands of the police years ago. We brought in a charter of rights and freedoms that now can be used as a shield by many of these people in this illicit trafficking that is destroying the lives of our children, destroying the undergirdings of society.

Therefore we have asked the justice minister and we have asked this government to protect the rights of victims, to protect the lives of our children by bringing in reasonable, common sense laws, by giving back to the police the powers and the discretion to use those powers in a manner they think is in the best interests of society.

I do not know why we do not see a proper response or a better response by the Liberal government and this justice minister. I cannot understand that. We came to the House in 1993 with a promise from the government that it was going to work more co-operatively, it was going to change the way we did business here, more free votes and that kind of thing. We were willing to give it a chance and we have supported every measure we thought was for the benefit of society. Yet the justice minister will stand in this place and accuse us of not supporting a bill like Bill C-41 which allows rapists to walk free.

I do not understand that. It seems the only thing some of the people on the other side understand is a message in neither of the official languages; it is an X on a ballot at election time. We will see.

We will let the people judge whether they feel society is safer than it was before, whether they are better off economically than they were before and whether this government deserves another mandate. Will we see. It will be up to the people.

I heard today from the Prime Minister on television, from the justice minister, and it bothers me so much, the pretence that they do not know when the election is going to be called.

If an election were not evident or imminent we would not be rushing this bill through without having witnesses. All the people the justice minister suggested to us he has consulted we should have heard from. We should have had their opinions. The members of the House, through our committee, should have had those opinions placed on the record so we could determine whether this bill should have been amended and if so in what areas. We should have had that opportunity.

The justice minister pretends that he does not know when the election is going to be called. When they have their war rooms all rented and up and running, when they have everything on the move and he says to this House, as the Prime Minister said on TV two days ago, he does not know when the election will be called, it sounds to me like their GST promise again.

We will be asking the people of this country in the election that will be called within a week or so to weigh the legislation and weigh their own circumstances as to whether they feel safer in society, whether their economic situation has improved or deteriorated. If they feel that the government has done a good job, it deserves another mandate. If they do not then we are asking them very clearly to look at an alternative that will listen and will be guided by the will of the majority so that our Minister of Justice can go to Saskatchewan and can talk to the gun owners, the

law-abiding, hardworking taxpayers, stand in front of a crowd and not be concerned.

He can come to Dauphin, Manitoba where I was last Saturday, where 450 people turned up to learn what? More about Bill C-68. Imagine that, after two years. They are still punching holes in the air out there over what they consider to be a horrible injustice. It is a piece of legislation directed at them rather than at the criminal use of firearms.

We will support this bill. I am hoping that we are not missing anything. The justice minister heard from people on both sides of this issue. I am hoping there is nothing that has been held back from us in terms of their cares, their worries or their concerns. I am hoping that this bill will do the job we all want it to do.

It is really unfortunate that we would allow the drug trafficking situation to get so well entrenched in this country and so expansive. We feel it now in every school. We feel it in every community across this country. The absolute proof of that fact is we now have two bands of thugs fighting over the turf to control this.

I lay the responsibility clearly on the shoulders of past justice ministers, past Liberal and Tory governments that had an opportunity to do something about it but did nothing. Now the wolf is at our door and we think this bill is going to solve it. I hope it does but I am not holding my breath in the expectation that reams of convictions under this new bill will occur.

Criminal Code April 21st, 1997

Mr. Chairman, we have here another term that is not defined. Would the justice minister tell us what he means by the term explosive substance in clause 2.

Criminal Code April 21st, 1997

Mr. Speaker, I would move an amendment to clause 1:

That the word "five" be changed to read "three" in line 23 on page 2.

Criminal Code April 21st, 1997

Mr. Chairman, what is regrettable is that the justice minister, in creating that bill, placed the maximum penalty of 10 years for a person knowingly failing to register their .22 gopher rifle. That is what he has done. He has gone to great lengths in his answer to suggest that this is not an issue that should be raised and overlooks the fact that he has created such a severe penalty that it makes anyone who chooses to challenge that law in a court, like the three provinces and the territories are doing, come under at least the eaves trough of this bill.

That is what is regrettable as far as the justice minister's response is concerned. Some concerns were indicated in some newspaper articles about how the bill may be applied in such a way that it was not meant by the justice department or justice minister to be applied. We have good evidence of that kind of legislation going through the House and Bill C-41 is a good example. He, by his own admission, did not expect the conditional sentencing to be used in the manner that allows rapists to walk free.

We have to look at the minister's rationale in this when he suggests that we do not have to worry about this. Maybe he does not have to worry, but as representatives of the people of this country and as the guardians of their rights when it comes to legislation like this, it is very appropriate that not only do we examine this bill but its ramifications as may occur through the interpretation of the very clauses of the bill and the terms that lie undefined.

I would like to ask the justice minister the following question. There have been over 60 gang related murders in Quebec since October 1994 to 1995. Eighty gang members were arrested and charged for some 200 offences. Outside of the extension of the wiretap laws which may help the investigating peace officer to investigate a murder, how is this bill going to help those investigating police officers apprehend those responsible for these murders, including those who set the bomb off that killed the little 11 year

old boy? How is this bill going to help other than perhaps the extension of the wiretap laws?

Criminal Code April 21st, 1997

Mr. Chairman, we are talking about serious offences, offences that carry a minimum penalty of over five years.

The minister has provided that kind of penalty in Bill C-68. That means a group of hunters or a group of farmers or a group of people who own firearms like .22 calibre gopher rifles and do not want to register them fall within that category. I suppose they could be designated as members of a criminal organization if there were five of them.

If their primary activity could be determined to be failure to register their firearms and challenging the gun law in court, it could

be considered to be a series of offences. Would they fall into the category of a criminal organization?