David Collenette

[National Defence, March 28th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, contrary to what the hon. member has said, it was not me yesterday who uttered the quote claiming that General Boyle, chief of the defence staff, was mislead by subordinates.

That was contained in Mr. Grace's letter. Mr. Grace was quite explicit in saying that the present chief of the defence staff played no part in any of the wrongdoing that was outlined in his letter.

We are not trying to hide. How can the hon. member accuse us of hiding when it was the department that went outside the department to the information commissioner, sought his assistance and co-operated with the investigation.

[Canadian Armed Forces, March 28th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, if we are talking about credibility, let us put the facts on the table.

It was the minister of fisheries in April 1993, when the Liberal Party was in opposition, who called for an inquiry into the whole question of the deployment to Somalia. This government delivered on that particular promise once it came into office and once we were assured that any commission would not interfere with the judicial process that we inherited and that was under way with the courts martial.

On the incident that has recently come to light, how can the hon. member talk about the credibility of the government when it was the officials in the government, the deputy minister and the chief of the defence staff, who drew these very troubling matters to the attention of the information commissioner? There was an internal investigation by the military police.

If that is not good enough for the hon. member, there has been an investigation by a third party, the information commissioner. He has rendered his judgment. It was made public yesterday and action will be taken. Those matters in his report parallel the facts in the military police report. The military police report is with the department's lawyers. That is all I can say on the matter at this point so as not to injure anyone who may be involved.

[Canadian Armed Forces, March 28th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, I can give you and members of the House the assurance that the Department of National Defence has and will do everything in its power to make sure that every single document relevant to the inquiry is handed over to the inquiry.

There is a bit of an information overflow because there are tens of thousands of pages of such documents. It has caused difficulty for the department in collating them and getting them to the commission. It has caused difficulty for the commission, but we are working with the commission to surmount these obstacles.

The hon. member has talked about not getting information out of the department of defence and being dissatisfied with my previous answer. This government is concerned with the fundamental principles of justice and we have to be concerned that none of those principles of justice are transgressed with respect to any individuals who may be involved in this matter.

[Canadian Armed Forces, March 28th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, as I said yesterday, the facts in Mr. Grace's letter parallel the facts that have been raised by a military police investigation. Certainly we view these allegations with severity.

In fact it was the departmental officials, the deputy minister and the former chief of defence staff who alerted Mr. Grace, the information commissioner, to this problem. It was the department that did it once it found out about these irregularities.

We are certainly concerned with what he has found out in his letter, but given the fact there is a military police investigation with all it entails, and given that the facts in the military police investigation are consistent with those outlined in Mr. Grace's letter, it would be very wrong for me, in case I were to prejudice the jurisdiction and the legal proceedings of any individuals, to answer the hon. member's question as he has posed it.

[National Defence, March 27th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, with respect to the kicking and screaming, I would like to quote from a letter written by Mr. Grace to the deputy minister: "There is a silver lining to the cloud which these cases represent for national defence. The wrongdoing which occurred was first brought to my attention by the deputy minister of defence". In other words, it was brought to the attention of the commissioner by the department itself. There was no kicking, screaming or dragging.

Obviously this is a disconcerting series of events and all of those matters will be addressed.

What the hon. member has also failed to reveal in the House is that his party, together with members of the national media, maligned the present chief of defence staff. Mr. Grace in his letter has since said that the chief of defence staff, General Boyle, has had nothing whatsoever to do with any of the wrongdoings.

I expect apologies from the Reform Party and the national media with respect to the actions taken against the chief of defence staff.

[National Defence, March 27th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to remind the hon. member that it was the deputy minister of defence who drew this matter to the attention of the information commissioner immediately upon learning of the irregularities.

We welcome the report of the information commissioner. Indeed, his findings and the facts in his report are consistent with those that have been revealed in the military police investigations.

All of the matters addressed by Mr. Grace in his letter to the deputy minister have either been addressed or are being addressed.

[Canadian Armed Forces, March 22nd, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, when incidents such as this happen in the armed forces, the minister obviously is fully informed and the investigative process takes place.

As my parliamentary secretary said yesterday, the very good procedures that have been put in place especially as a result of some problems we have had in recent years cannot always be seen to be working if certain people in the forces display errors in judgment. There is very little we, the chief of the defence staff and other senior officers can do about errors in judgment in the same way that I cannot do anything about the hon. member coming to the House of Commons and asking rhetorical and fatuous questions.

[Canadian Armed Forces, March 22nd, 1996]

These questions were answered yesterday by my parliamentary secretary and earlier this morning. The fact is that an incident occurred last weekend at Gagetown and we view any incident as described to be quite serious. The matter is being investigated not by me but by the military police. The hon. member should know, being an ex-serviceman, how the military justice system works. When the matter is fully investigated, then the judicial proceedings will take place.

[Canadian Armed Forces, March 22nd, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, after that question, one thing I can admit is that contrary to my earlier opinion, the hon. member does know the days of the week and months of the year.

[Canadian Armed Forces, March 22nd, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, I think we have

learned a lot in recent years from earlier examples of where behaviour was unacceptable. Procedures have been put in place.

We do our best to ensure those procedures, those codes of conduct, are followed but when they are transgressed it is dealt with promptly and in the appropriate way.