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Crucial Fact

  • His favourite word was quebec.

Last in Parliament May 2004, as Bloc MP for Berthier—Montcalm (Québec)

Won his last election, in 2000, with 57% of the vote.

Statements in the House

Youth Criminal Justice Act March 22nd, 1999

Mr. Speaker, it is with some degree of regret that I rise in this House today to speak on this bill. The debate on Bill C-68 ought never to have taken place at all, as the Minister of Justice knows full well.

It has been demonstrated on many occasions that what is not working properly is not the Young Offenders Act itself, but its application. Those who are applying it properly succeed where others fail. Nevertheless, the Liberal government is obstinately preparing to demolish the spirit of this approach.

I would like to take the time available to me to prove that the Young Offenders Act does not deserve the fate the Liberals have in store for it, in response to pressures from western Canada. The act is being used as a scapegoat by a Liberal government that prefers to take the easy way out, while it ought to be left unchanged.

The Youth Offenders Act was passed in 1982, and came into effect in 1984. This legislation did not spring up over night. It is the result of several decades of reflection. In fact, one has to go all the way back to 1857 to find the first initiative assigning special status to juvenile delinquents.

The beginnings of the first youth justice system go back to 1908, with the Juvenile Delinquency Act. This intention of this act was to put young people back on the right track, while minimalizing their responsibility, given their youth. The idea was to set up a system that would truly promote the effective reintegration of young offenders into society.

At the time, Ontario was among the first provinces to put pressure so that young offenders would benefit from a protective approach. Ironically, Queen's Park is now the most vocal in demanding more repressive measures for young offenders.

In the early seventies, Quebec took two social measures that would prove very useful under the Young Offenders Act: the creation of a legal aid program and a reform of social services. Quebec adopted its first diversion measures in 1974, when it reviewed its Youth Protection Act. The province was then ready to implement the Young Offenders Act as soon as it would come into effect, in 1984.

I must point out here the extraordinary solidarity displayed in Quebec, which, at the time, succeeded in convincing the federal government to adopt the act that we now have, that is an act based on crime prevention, on the rehabilitation of young people who commit criminal acts, and above all an act designed to ensure the long term protection of society. The Young Offenders Act as we know it reflected, and still reflects, the thrust that it was intended to have.

At the time, there was no doubt that we had to put more emphasis on diversion measures. In Quebec, that approach had been stressed long before, in the Prévost report. Going before the court should only be considered after having exhausted all other options, such as reorientation, rehabilitation, and agreements with the parents to provide special treatment.

That approach had been applied elsewhere, including in the United States, in England and in Scotland. The federal government had no choice but to set the stage for diversion measures, through the Young Offenders Act. Still, since the administration of justice comes under their jurisdiction, it was the provinces that had to set up diversion programs. Quebec did so by establishing an ambitious alternative program.

This year, 1999, we celebrate the 15th anniversary of the coming into law of the Young Offenders Act. The Minister of Justice of Canada considers that the law has done its time, that it is out of date and no longer meets our expectations. Let us be clear, the Liberal government is not getting ready to sacrifice 15 years of expertise, but rather 30 years of Quebec know-how.

The Young Offenders Act is the product of a number of serious consultations and studies. In 1992, the Government of Quebec established a task force to look into the application of the Young Offenders Act. Chaired by Michel Jasmin, deputy chief justice of the court of Quebec, Chambre de la jeunesse, the task force brought forth a voluminous report after two and a half years of in-depth consultation and study.

I consider it vital to inform the House of some of the conclusions of the Jasmin report, which remain topical and which, it would seem, are unknown to the minister.

Drafted from testimony by many jurists, criminologists, psychologists and social workers in Quebec, the report eloquently describes the approach taken in Quebec in dealing with juvenile delinquents. I will read to you a number of passages of this important report prepared by Mr. Justice Jasmin.

From the work we have done over the past two and a half years, we are satisfied that the Young Offenders Act is good legislation. We were struck by the consensus of the various sectors that deal with this area. It should be noted that Quebec has developed a tradition in dealing with young offenders.

The efforts of the pioneers, who, in the 1950s, advocated that services be human and professional, have borne fruit that at the time would have been unthinkable. The aim was to move beyond mere repression to focus interventions on the education and rehabilitation of young people. A lot has been done to reach that point.

And the judge continues, a little further on in his extremely important report:

Juvenile delinquency is a complex problem and must be approached accordingly. The legislation is a key element of any strategy, but we must look at the broader picture and examine other factors that are no less important. It is often easier to amend legislation than to change our approach to a problem.

Mr. Justice Jasmin probably already knew the current Minister of Justice. He goes on:

It may be tempting to think that tougher legislation is the answer to the problems of delinquency. Simplistic responses blind us to the full extent of complex problems and create the false impression that we are doing what is necessary to resolve them. One such simplistic response is substituting get-tough measures for educational approaches.

It is clear from examination of the bill at second reading that the minister's responses to an extremely complex problem are very simplistic.

The Jasmin report is often mentioned by those who support Quebec's approach. As a member from Quebec, I cannot ignore it. I will use this report to denounce the simplistic solutions of this government, which has caved in not once but twice to pressure from the right and from the Reform Party.

I will again point out that the Young Offenders Act is a good act. I cannot say often enough to the minister across the way that substituting get-tough measures for educational approaches is a simplistic response.

The Young Offenders Act is getting very good results. Youth crime is steadily declining. Oddly enough, the federal Minister of Justice presented very eloquent figures to this effect when she introduced her bill.

She mentioned that there had been a 23% decrease in youth crime since 1991. She even told the press that the number of crimes with violence had also decreased since 1995.

Just as we identify a tree by the fruit it produces, so should we judge the Young Offenders Act by the results it gets, and not by a misconception.

It would be irresponsible to blindly reform the youth justice system without looking at the whole picture. In protecting such vital things as life and bodily security, the Young Offenders Act plays a front line role in strengthening the community's faith in our institutions.

Parliamentarians therefore must respond quickly to the concerns of their fellow citizens by making the appropriate legislative amendments as needed.

However, they must first and foremost ensure that the public has the information it needs to properly grasp such a complex problem as juvenile delinquency. There is no point, however, in doing what the minister has decided to do, namely throwing the baby out with the bath water. We must take a very close look and not act impulsively with such legislation.

The federal Minister of Justice failed in her duty to inform. By advocating stricter legislation, the minister wrongly intimates that the existing legislation is deficient. It would seem to indicate a lack of leadership.

Bill C-68 shows it is easier for a Liberal government to sacrifice good legislation than to advocate the effective approach it promotes.

To properly understand the reason behind the current amendments to the Young Offenders Act, we must go back to the 35th Parliament to look at the first Liberal attempts at turning the Young Offenders Act into a scapegoat.

On April 28, 1994, the current Minister of Health and former Minister of Justice stated in the House that the move to the right responded to election commitments. He was very candid in his acknowledgement.

I scarcely need to point out that these commitments were certainly not aimed at Quebec voters. In fact, it is hardly a well-kept secret that the Liberal Party's intention was to win over the clientele of the Reform in the west.

By passing Bill C-37 at that time, the Liberal government was introducing into the Young Offenders Act a whole series of automatic provisions which would greatly affect the fragile equilibrium of the youth justice system.

By allowing 16 and 17 year olds to be automatically referred to the adult court system, this government watered down once again the specific nature of the youth justice system. At the rate things are going, soon the only connection it will have with youth will be in its title.

Continuing in the same vein, in May, 1998, the Minister of Justice introduced her youth justice renewal strategy. In particular, she announced her intention to extend the referrals to 14 and 15 year olds. All parties involved in Quebec viewed this with alarm.

The Quebec bar association had even prepared an impressive brief in which it openly deplored this measure, which it felt was likely to increase recidivism among youth, both in number and in severity. In its brief, the bar association expressed the opinion that the problem did not lie with the current Young Offenders Act, but rather with the way it was being applied.

It also criticized the reform because it was based on grounds that were both biased and disconnected from reality. Among other points it raised was the following most legitimate question, one still as timely now as it was then, “Where exactly does the government get the information that stiffer sentences were going to have any impact whatsoever on the crime rate?”

The Quebec bar association was bang on. Not only was the reform not necessary, but the solutions being put forward by the minister are misguided and risky.

Last Friday, this issue received a breath of fresh air when some fifteen organizations from Quebec publicly reaffirmed their opposition to Bill C-68. The Association des centres jeunesse du Québec, the Commission des droits de la personne et des droits de la jeunesse, the Conseil permanent de la jeunesse and the Association des chefs de police et de pompiers du Quebec, to name just a few, held a press conference at which they reaffirmed Quebec's consensus and flatly opposed the Minister of Justice's Bill C-68.

The message was and is very straightforward. They are telling the minister that they want nothing to do with her bill. They have systematically rebutted all the minister's claims that her flexible system will allow Quebec to enforce the legislation as it sees fit.

Criminologist Jean Trépanier, a recognized youth crime expert in Quebec, was scathing when it came to the minister's much-touted flexibility. At the press conference, he said: “The so-called flexibility seems to be a political trick. Quebec's judges cannot ignore sentences handed down in other courts”. Those in doubt need only read the bill.

Cécile Toutant, another very respected voice from Quebec, also took aim at certain of the bill's measures. This criminologist, who is responsible for the youth program at the Pinel institute, condemned the new measures allowing for the automatic imposition of adult sentences on 14 and 15 year olds. According to Ms. Toutant, the time served in jail has nothing to do with the protection of the public. Perhaps the minister does not know that.

Me Trépanier and Ms. Toutant are members of the Quebec bar association's subcommittee on young offenders. That subcommittee drafted, among other documents, the association's submission on the strategy to renew the youth justice system. The minister cannot ignore the advice of these experts.

Those who will have to live with the new legislation do not care about the concerns of this election-minded Liberal government. They are the ones who will have to implement the new act. The spokesperson for Quebec's youth centres association was very clear when he said, and I quote, that “if the bill is passed, we will have a real mess”.

The act will be implemented based on a very fragile discretionary power held by crown attorneys. Again, the Young Offenders Act is a good act. It is effective and it gives good results. Therefore, why change it? What are the reasons justifying such a shakeup, other than the fact that the minister is desperate to please right-wing voters and give them the repressive measures they are asking for.

Recently, western Canada, headed by the Reform Party, was demanding harsher sentences. It is getting them with this bill. Recently too, western Canada's right wing was demanding that the names of young offenders be published, and again the minister yielded to pressure.

Reformers are still not satisfied. They now want criminal justice to apply to 10 year olds. Right now, the minister says she does not want to hear about such a measure. Yet, that is what the Liberal government said in 1994, when Reformers were asking for harsher sentences. The government would not hear of such measures. What happened since? The government caved in pathetically.

This government will never succeed in maintaining a balanced approach to juvenile crime. It is much too concerned by its election ambitions in western Canada. Who can trust such a flip-flop government?

Still today, one thing is obvious in the issue of the Young Offenders Act. The Quebec people will not be able to make choices that reflect its own values until it attains sovereignty.

Every day until then, we shall rise in this House to denounce the weakness of this government. In this issue in particular, the Bloc Quebecois will not give up on its demands, with witnesses to back up its position, that the minister listen to common sense, quit playing petty politics with something as important as the future of young people who are experiencing trouble with the law, and make up her mind to withdraw her bill, because it is aimed at trying to cause the failure of the Quebec model.

It constitutes a real obstacle and a threat to the Quebec model, which was created with the help of specialists and all those involved in the field and goes back a good 30 years.

I am calling upon the minister to understand this, and to withdraw this bill as quickly as possible, because it is not good for the future of these young people involved in crime.

Supply March 16th, 1999

Mr. Speaker, it is most unfortunate that the member for Bourassa takes this approach, because I have tried to avoid petty politics when it comes to the very important topic of crime. If the member had followed the proceeedings of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, he would know that on several occasions I set aside partisan politics in order to raise extremely important points for the betterment of the law, which I hold very dear.

In this case, I am being told what Quebec's president of the bar said. Quebec's president of the bar represents his peers. I am a member of the bar, and therefore he must represent me. He is also supposed to represent his committee, which has examined the issue. Other members of this committee include Ms. Toutan, Me Bois and Me Trépanier. Although I have not discussed the issue with them, I have heard what they have to say and they are squarely against the president of the bar's comments. They will apparently sort this out among themselves. Quebec's president of the bar did not inform any of them that he would be attending a press conference with the Minister of Justice, and, in particular, none of them was aware of his new view of the Young Offenders Act in this great land, Canada.

I will leave the Quebec bar to sort this out among themselves. Things will undoubtedly be said to which we will not be privy, but I am certain that there is still a consensus in Quebec and that it is opposed to the amendments the minister is proposing.

If the minister, her parliamentary secretary, or even the Liberal member for Bourassa were convinced that the Quebec approach is the best one, how can it be that they, as federalists who want only the best for Canada, have not been successful in selling this idea in English Canada? How can it be that, in order to put Quebec in its place, they are creating national standards and then telling Quebec “If you want any money, you'd better put up and shut up”. Yet, when it comes to what will be implemented in western Canada, flexibility will be allowed, a flexibility that is not part of the law.

Today, there are some reflex reactions that did to exist previously, and that will eventually have an impact on how young offenders will be handled in Quebec, and this I cannot allow. If the Liberal members from Quebec can, they will have to bear the responsibility for their actions. I, as a lawyer and an MP who is doing a serious and professional job here, cannot accept the minister's approach.

Supply March 16th, 1999

I hope that the members from Quebec who are here are listening and will ask me questions. I will be pleased to answer them.

The Minister of Justice, and even Reformers, rely on statistics that do not demonstrate any need to make amendments to the Young Offenders Act.

I will quote the figures mentioned by the minister herself when she introduced her amendments. They are from Statistics Canada, which means they should be precise numbers. The crime rate among young people has dropped 23%, even for violent crimes. That is those crimes targeted by the minister's proposed amendment, those that prompted her act and propose changes. There has even been a 3.2% drop since 1995.

Contrary to what a Liberal member said, juvenile crimes do not account for 10% of all crimes, but for less than that. One should look at the actual figures before saying things that make no sense.

That is why, given the statistics quoted by the minister, we must arrive at the conclusion that she is blindly amending an act that is good.

I attended the meetings of the Standing Committee on Justice, which examined this issue. I heard all the stakeholders, including some from western Canada, British Columbia and Ontario, and they said the problem was not really the act itself but the related funding.

In Quebec, people said “It is not the act that presents a problem, but the financing. Please do not change the Young Offenders Act. Maintain the status quo”.

Some 25 or 30 years ago, we in Quebec decided to invest in rehabilitation and social reintegration instead of in bricks and mortar for jails in which to keep young people locked up, so that they come out at age 25 or 30 with a fine education in how to commit crime, and an inability to do anything else. What we do instead is to invest in the individual, to focus on the heart of the problem. We have excellent success rates for rehabilitation and reintegration into society.

Of course it does not make the front page headlines when a young person who committed a murder at age 15 and was placed in rehabilitation now, 10 or 12 years later, having been rehabilitated, becomes an anonymous member of society, marries and starts a family, has a job, and is not dependent on society. This does not make the front page, of course, but it is a situation we see daily as a result of the way we apply the Young Offenders Act.

Members will understand, therefore, that it is impossible for me not to react when I hear inaccurate statistics and information given in this House. I will speak out as strongly as possible against any such attempt by either the Reform Party or the Liberal Party, who seem to get along very well when a detour to the right is necessary. I will be quick to stand up and defend my point of view, which is a point of view shared by all Quebeckers, and we know what we are talking about.

Supply March 16th, 1999

Mr. Speaker, I think it would be a good thing go back to the motion itself, which reads as follows:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government has failed to deliver criminal justice programs and laws that reflect the will and concerns of the majority of Canadians, including issues like child pornography, young offenders, impaired driving, conditional sentencing, drug trafficking, home invasions, police funding, consecutive sentencing, corrections facilities and illegal immigration, and as a consequence, have put individual safety, and in some cases national security, in jeopardy.

One is forced to conclude that this motion was prompted, as I said earlier, by amendments to the Young Offenders Act, among other things, but that it is also a reaction to the shocking case in British Columbia relating to child pornography.

I have some misgivings about the misconceptions this implies. The motion is based solely on perceptions, on emotions, on exceptions, and on the misinformation the Reform Party has been involved with ever since 1993, as justification for its desire to make some extremely significant changes, to the Young Offenders Act in particular.

I am not saying today that everything is rosy and wonderful and that we have the best system in the world. That is not the case. All systems need to be modernized and improved. There are areas where the government does not perform and should. There are vitally important areas where the Liberal government does nothing and should do something.

More dollars are laundered in this country than anywhere else in the world. What is the federal government doing about it? Absolutely nothing. We are proud to be the country laundering the most dollars. It would be easy to intervene. The government could simply outlaw the use of $1,000 bills, as the Bloc Quebecois member for Charlesbourg has been suggesting for a while now. Nothing is happening.

Epic battles had to be waged here to get the Liberal government to pass minor legislation on gangs. It does not go as far as we would like. It is not right for criminal gangs to call the shots as they are doing across the country without any intervention and the heads of the gangs being caught.

Certain laws protecting public security contain weaknesses. In terms of police services funding, the government could certainly put more money into prevention. Then there is the victims element.

There must be compliance with the Canadian Constitution as well. Odd to hear this from the mouth of a Bloc member, but there is a Canadian Constitution, and the people in this House do not appear to really know what it is about. It sets out responsibilities. But, as the Bloc member pointed out, not even the government complies with the Constitution, intervening in provincial areas of jurisdiction. Perhaps it should set an example.

The bottom line is that there is room for improvement in the system, but perhaps we should not expect to amend the Criminal Code or the Young Offenders Act by debating this kind of motion, or by citing specific cases that have made the headlines.

The Young Offenders Act is something I take a great interest in. I am familiar with the Young Offenders Act because a consensus was reached in Quebec. Efforts to address youth crime have been going on for 25 or 30 years. Lawyers, criminologists and specialists fought just as hard with the Government of Quebec of 25 or 30 years ago as they did with the federal government to bring about the structure we have today, and all stakeholders are proud of their achievement.

Members will surely understand my mistrust with respect to any sort of amendment to a bill that could undermine Quebec's approach to youth crime.

When I see this sort of à la carte legislation being proposed, when I see legislation purporting to be very flexible, according to the Minister of Justice and her parliamentary secretary, legislation that each province could enforce as it saw fit, I wonder. Why does the federal government want a Young Offenders Act then? Why does it not withdraw completely and leave the provinces with full jurisdiction over youth crime?

Quebec would immediately praise such a move on the part of the Minister of Justice, if she had the courage to make it. But I am afraid this is not about to happen. The whole thing is a smokescreen. It is not true that the new way of doing things with regard to criminal justice is as flexible as the government would have us believe to get Quebec to shut up, as federalists often try to do.

Supply March 16th, 1999

Mr. Speaker, I usually agree with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice on issues of criminal justice, particularly very important ones such as this one. We usually agree on the major thrusts and on the implementation of the Criminal Code.

However, in this debate on the motion put forward by the Reform Party, which is obviously motivated by the recent amendments proposed to the Young Offenders Act by the Department of Justice, I have a hard time reconciling the speech made this morning by the secretary parliamentary with the new thrust of the Young Offenders Act, with the new way of implementing the youth justice system in Canada.

Clearly, and even with the virtual agreement of two parties, it is in response to the pressure exerted by western Canada and the Reform Party that the Liberals reviewed the Young Offenders Act to strengthen it and to provide for stiffer penalties.

How can we reconcile the speech of the parliamentary secretary on rehabilitation and social reintegration with the possibility of having 14 and 15-year old kids being imprisoned and having their names published in newspapers, which would mark them for life? How can we reconcile these two things with the parents' responsibility?

I therefore ask the parliamentary secretary if she thinks that her speech is credible with regard to that issue?

Justice March 12th, 1999

Mr. Speaker, as regards Quebec's president of the bar, I cannot wait to see the reaction of the committee of the Barreau du Québec, which examined the issue and contradicted the president of the bar.

Does the minister realize that, by toughening up the act as she did, she is putting undue pressure on the Quebec justice system, thus undermining 25 years of expertise in the area of juvenile crime?

The parliamentary secretary is from Quebec. She should speak up against her minister on this issue.

Justice March 12th, 1999

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the Minister of Justice once again yielded in a pitiful way to the right by introducing coercive measures for young offenders, a decision that can only please hard-liners.

Will the minister admit to the House, as she did at a press conference yesterday, that her bill does not give any additional leeway to the provinces in the area of prevention or rehabilitation?

Young Offenders Act March 11th, 1999

Mr. Speaker, the numbers were wrong.

In spite of the so-called opting out clause, which was the object of a calculated leak on her part, will the minister admit her bill is her response to pressure from the right wing in western Canada, and that the measures she is proposing are useless, ill conceived and even dangerous?

Young Offenders Act March 11th, 1999

Mr. Speaker, since 1995, even violent crime has dropped constantly, by 3.2%. What the minister just said is not true.

Young Offenders Act March 11th, 1999

Mr. Speaker, this morning the Minister of Justice introduced a bill making sweeping amendments to the Young Offender Act.

In the documents she tabled, she said the principles of the current act lacked clarity, were inconsistent and contradictory.

How does she explain that it is under this supposedly unclear, inconsistent and even contradictory act, according to the statistics she quoted this morning at a press conference, youth crime has come down 23% since 1991?