Jack Frazer

[Somalia Inquiry, February 13th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, I have some understanding of how military people react when they see blatant unfairness in the system that is dealing with them.

The minister's response does not change the fact that Shidane Arone was beaten, tortured and murdered. Then there was an attempted cover-up at national defence headquarters. By shutting down the inquiry the government is trying to cover up the cover-up. Why is the minister so willing to let senior officers, bureaucrats and politicians go uninvestigated? What is the minister afraid of?

[Somalia Inquiry, February 13th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, the defence minister's decision to shut down the Somalia inquiry prevents investigation of allegations of high level cover-up in the defence department.

What this means is the minister is letting the lower ranks take the fall, while senior brass, bureaucrats and maybe even politicians get off scot free.

Why is the minister refusing to hold high level officials accountable for trying to cover up the events surrounding the torture death of a Somali teenager?

[Somalia Inquiry, February 12th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, I served for 36 years in the armed forces and I was proud of that. Incidents that have happened since Somalia have caused me to question whether I can still be proud of it. I wonder if the minister realizes the impact of the inquiry.

The Prime Minister, the defence minister and the justice minister all admit to being lawyers, but now their appointed lawyer, Justice Létourneau, has accused them of political interference in the process of the Somalia inquiry. He said that in future judges may have to think about whether they will accept serving on an inquiry because of political interference.

Has it been worth it: a cover-up, a whitewash? Is it worth sacrificing judicial independence for selfish political gain?

[Somalia Inquiry, February 12th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, the chairman of the Somalia inquiry has accused both the Prime Minister and the defence minister of political interference with the inquiry, interference unprecedented in Canadian history.

Before the decision was even made, the chairman had advised the privy council that such interference would cause a whitewash, yet the Prime Minister proceeded to shut down the inquiry anyway.

My question is to the Prime Minister. Why did the Prime Minister choose a whitewash over the truth by closing down the inquiry? Are his interests in the Canadian forces or are they strictly political?

[Supply, February 7th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, the government was very keen to pursue the inquiry while it was examining things that happened under the Tory mandate, but now we are getting toward the post-deployment phase. Although the events happened in March 1993, events followed and after the October 1993 election when the Liberals were in power a substantial amount happened since then.

Does the member see any connection between the fact that the inquiry was fine when it was at arm's length but now that it is getting closer it may be not so appropriate?

[Supply, February 7th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, I have said this before and I believe it in my heart. If I had been the commander on scene this would not have happened. It would not have happened because my personnel would have known that I would not allow it to happen. It would not be acceptable to me.

The member for Edmonton Southwest has put his finger on a lot of the problem. Problems were evident in the airborne regiment before it was deployed. These problems were made known to higher headquarters, yet the people who were recommended to be left at home were still taken there. It was one of those people who was recommended to be left at home who was found to have committed the crime.

Obviously there is a problem somewhere along the line.

Was it in Petawawa? Was it at land force headquarters in Ontario? Was it at national defence headquarters? Where was it? I am not sure. I guess the commission has that information. Obviously the military culture does not accept this sort of behaviour as being normal.

What is required is to establish how this aberration happened, how it was allowed to happen and who was responsible for having not taken action to rectify it.

[Supply, February 7th, 1997]

Thank you. Also, I would like to point out that this inquiry has been hamstrung by the very people it is investigating to a large extent. Documents were withheld, information was slow to come forward. Then we had that magic Easter egg hunt where people were shut down for a day and they went through all their files and they amassed a whole gigantic bunch of information that was then presented to the commission. I understand there were absolutely thousands of pages of testimony that the commission then had to do through, page by page, because it cannot overlook anything. It might omit something important. This was a deliberate withholding of evidence for the commission and it caused a delay.

No one doubts that the problem in Somalia was one of command and control. That command and control stretched from the theatre right the way back to national defence headquarters in Ottawa. It also had to do with leadership and discipline. The people on the ground obviously were not properly led nor were they properly disciplined. We are hearing stories of things that went on that are just unacceptable, whether it be in an operational situation or anywhere.

When the murder of Shidane Arone took place, it was in a relatively small compound with at least 80 people in the vicinity who could not have helped but heard what was going on. Yet none of them intervened, and I do not understand why.

Where was the platoon commander, where was the regimental sergeant-major, where was the company sergeant-major, where was the company commander? How could they let this go on and not interfere or intervene? I know there were a number of people who actually went into the bunker and saw this going on and they chose not to take action. This is totally unacceptable and should not have been allowed.

The problem I think is that we cannot fix something we do not know is broken. We have to find out what has gone wrong before we can say "this is the problem, now we can fix it". I do not know just how that can be accomplished unless we go right to the end of the chain and say "This is what happened. This was the input. This

was how it was dealt with". If the dealing with it was inadequate, then it is only appropriate that we finish it.

I want to go to the minister's comments with regard to my leader's submission. He has mentioned a number of times. I quote the leader of the Reform Party from Hansard on September 17, 1996, page 4308: ``Mr. Speaker, to ensure there is no ultimate cover-up in the Somalia inquiry, will the Prime Minister guarantee to this House that the results of the inquiry will be made fully public before the next federal election?'' In no way does this suggest that the inquiry should be shut down. It merely says completed.

The Prime Minister and his government were elected in October 1993 for five years, which gives them until October 1998. My leader does not call the election; the Prime Minister calls the election, and he can call it whenever he wants to. If he is not afraid of the inquiry coming out, why does he not wait until the inquiry reports and then call the election?

I will now propose an amendment to the motion.

I move:

That the motion be amended by deleting all of the words after the word "inquiry" and adding the following:

"and directing the commission to make its final report as soon as possible but not later than December 31, 1997".

[Supply, February 7th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to carry on from the minister's comments. I, as much as anyone, wish this inquiry had been concluded a year ago. I certainly do not want to see it extended forever but I do want to see the answers come out. I think it is vital that the inquiry be allowed to complete its business.

I want to go on record and recognize the excellent work our armed forces do. They have been committed in any number of places, uncomfortable, dangerous and far flung. They have committed themselves time and time again to the duty to which they have been assigned. When they commit themselves, they commit themselves very well. It works.

Therefore I think it is a shame that unhappily the Somali debacle has cast a cloud over the whole military force, even for me. After 36 years of service in the air force I left very proud of my service there. I was a senior officer when I left and now I find that people who know this almost ask the question "were you one of those who covers up and does not accept responsibility and does this?" Most

senior officers do accept their responsibilities. They are good leaders.

The people who have unhappily been accused in this instance are left sort of hanging out to dry unless their case can be heard in completeness and therefore they can be found either absolutely innocent of any wrongdoing or be found to have been inadequate in some way.

The Liberal government initially resisted the inquiry being compiled at all. It said no, the situation is being investigated by the defence department. It was only when Major Armstrong came forth in November 1994 that the Minister of National Defence at that time was forced to order an inquiry. Even then with the interlude of the Christmas break it was sometime in the following year before he did it and he announced it as an inquiry under the National Defence Act. This means that once again the inquiry would be conducted behind closed doors. It would not be open to the public.

On March 20 I demanded in this House that the investigation be held under the Inquiries Act rather than the National Defence Act. The next day the minister, and I congratulate him for doing so, saw the wisdom of this and changed the inquiry to come under the Inquiries Act, which made it open to the public.

Now we are having the inquiry curtailed when it gets into the final stages of its job. First of all, it was supposed to investigate the deployment to Somali before the predeployment phase, the during phase and the post phase, the after phase. It has completed the predeployment phase. It is nearing the end of its investigation into the deployment phase. But it will not be able to investigate the post-deployment phase because of the arbitrary curtailment of the inquiry put in by the Minister of National Defence.

I see this as blatant political interference in a judicial inquiry. The minister by his action is denying people who have had accusations flung against them to be heard in full, to have justice done them. That seems unfair. Justice Latourneau has said that if he cannot hear people, he will make no judgment. I think that is absolutely right. If we have not given people a chance to testify to be heard, to be examined, then it is not fair to find them.

What this means is that there may be people who are responsible and were responsible who will not be held accountable for their actions. I think that is not fair.

Also, look at what this decision is going to mean to future inquiries. What will people say when they are asked to participate on an inquiry? They will say "Am I going to get two-thirds of the inquiry? Will I involve myself in this thing which might turn out to be a fiasco that is cut short because of the arbitrary whim of some political minister?" If that does happen, we are going to lose in Canada a tremendous capability to examine and assure that justice is being done in all aspects of government. It goes to the integrity, the impartiality and the independence of the commission.

The minister mentioned in his comments if the Reform Party wanted to suggest to the commissioners some witnesses we think they should hear. To me that is me interfering with the inquiry. The commissioners have established a standing for various people. I assume they have done that in recognition of the information and the facts this individual has to present to the commission and others have been denied. It is not for me to tell the commissioners how to do their job.

Mr. Speaker, I neglected to mention that I will be splitting my time with the member for Edmonton Southwest.

[Supply, February 7th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, to the minister, I would like to quote Justice Létourneau yesterday with regard to their ability to hear any witness they want to hear. He said: "It is not true in this respect that we have plenty of time to call witnesses such as Mr. Fowler and Mr. Anderson. Evidence on such important matters presented without the possibility of real or substantial testing risks producing a whitewash of the alleged cover-up rather than an investigation of it".

I equate the inquiry somewhat to a jigsaw puzzle. In a jigsaw puzzle there is a key piece and once that key piece is in place, the thing makes sense and comes together.

I suggest to the minister that it is not reasonable for the inquiry to go to the witnesses at the end of the chain before they have established the rest of the pattern, so that when they ask their questions they are based on evidence that is directly related to the individual they are questioning.

[Order Of Military Merit, February 7th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, Wednesday, Governor General Romeo LeBlanc, Commander in Chief of the Canadian Armed Forces, honoured 52 members of the regular and reserve forces with the Order of Military Merit, reminding us that despite current problems, Canada's military has distinguished itself not only in armed conflicts but in peacekeeping missions and rescue efforts.

Eighty-one year old Air Commodore Leonard Birchall was one of the 52 distinguished with the Order of Military Merit and is the first Canadian to receive the fifth clasp to the Canadian forces decoration, signifying 62 years of honourable military service to Canada.

While on a reconnaissance patrol on April 4, 1942, Squadron Leader Birchall sighted Japanese ships swiftly moving in for a surprise attack on Ceylon. He alerted the British fleet of the impending attack but was then shot down and taken as a Japanese prisoner of war.

As the senior prisoner, he made continual although not always successful efforts to protect his fellow prisoners from brutality. For his efforts he was awarded the British Empire Medal for Gallantry and Winston Churchill dubbed him the saviour of Ceylon.

I am sure this House joins me in congratulating Len Birchall.