Ed Harper

[Liberal Party, June 13th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, tonight's vote on Bill C-68 will be a decisive moment in Ontario politics. Ninety-seven Liberal members will have an opportunity to represent the views of their constituents. We will have a chance to see if last week's lesson in populism renews the desire of all members to do what is right for their ridings and their province.

Time allocation may speed some bills through the House but Ontario members know the final vote on this issue will take place in 1997 on the gun bill, on pensions, on sexual orientation and employment equity. Liberals must choose between supporting their party or supporting their constituents. Will it be Liberal, Tory, same old story? Do not allow your decisions to be Mcleoded. Vote with your constituents.

[Business Of The House, June 9th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, I would prefer to remain focused on you rather than getting into a debate.

The point that I was making is that it is what the voters want, not what we want or what we think they want. The point I made when I started out was that Mike Harris won in Ontario because he listened to the voters and adapted his agenda. The Liberal Party, on the other hand, provincially and federally, are not listening to the voters. They paid the price for it in the province in Ontario.

My suggestion to the member and all members of the government is that you will pay the price for it in the next federal election because you are not listening to the Canadian people.

[Business Of The House, June 9th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, I did get carried away and I apologize for that. I will go through the Chair.

On compensation the mistake was putting a number when a number did not need to be put. The point by the member for Calgary West was it should be above board.

If we were to ask the Canadian people the top 10 issues they want to see the government dealing with, gun control would not make that list. It is a sham because we are not dealing with those issues. In dealing with the gun control bill we ask for proof that the registration program will do what the government says it will, but we do not get that.

Polls show that people who say they support the bill do not believe it will achieve what the government says it is will. It is incumbent on the government to prove if it can that the bill will reduce crime. It cannot do it and that is why the voters are rejecting it. That is why Mike Harris won with the huge majority he did.

On Bill C-42, it is a sentencing bill. It contains something the voters do not want. I keep hearing in the House it is what we want. What is important is not what we want but what the people we are representing want.

[Business Of The House, June 9th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments and question from the member for Mississauga South.

Dealing with the compensation package and the real number, we do not know what that number is. We are not putting a number forward. We are saying the total compensation package has to be looked at and all the loopholes have to be eliminated so that whatever we are being paid we have no special deals, no gold plated pension plan, no tax exempt status. We can put it all right out on the table and let the voters, an independent group, decide what our compensation figure should be, not the members in the House. I am quite prepared to do that.

The burning issue with Canadian voters is get it out in the open, stop this double standard of a better deal for us than they can get in the private sector. They are infuriated by that. You miss the message and you continue to miss the message and that was-

[Business Of The House, June 9th, 1995]

They say: "Let's spend it because we said we were going to. It does not matter what the voter wants. Let's give it to them. We know what is best. Never mind the mindless masses out there. The government knows what is best". Members are told: "Don't listen to your people. We know what is best for them". Do ot let them fool you. They really do not understand; we do. We have some kind of superior intelligence here and we know what is best out there".

Mulroney thought that and he found out to his sorrow that when politicians do not listen to the Canadian people, as his government did not, they pay very dearly when they go back to the voters at the next election.

During the Ontario election, Mr. Harris said he was opposed to gun registration. That is the other part about the bill which makes no sense. It is almost like it was an intentional deception. We are mixing apples and oranges in the bill. It is unbelievable. It is mixing law-abiding citizens with the criminals. It makes absolutely no sense.

We made an attempt to have the bill split. There is 100 per cent support, I am sure in all parties and in all parts of Canada, for getting tough with the criminal misuse of firearms. That is where the problem is. That is where we have to address our attention. That will contribute to making our homes safer, our streets safer and our communities safer. No, we had to have the whole package. We had to have the harassment of the legitimate gun owner and combined with that the spending of all the tax dollars we do not have to accomplish nothing.

Poll after poll has indicated the bill will not do what the government has said it will do. Time after time polls have shown that. It is a charade and the voters will see through it. The government is not listening. It is not paying attention. Perhaps it is selective hearing.

On hate crimes, Ontario voters said they do not want the undefined phrase sexual orientation in there. Mr. Harris won on that. Here again we have the government pushing through one of three bills which nobody wants. The voters do not want them. I cannot believe the government does not the message. It is not listening. It does not want to hear. It will dearly; one term members. I am looking forward to the next election.

The deficit and the debt is the issue we should be dealing with. We wasted all of this time on other bills which are not on the main agenda. We will extend hours to debate bills secondary in importance to the majority of Canadians. The number one issue, the burning issue, is the deficit and the debt, and we continue to fiddle while Rome burns. It is unbelievable.

Unfortunately the first part of the budget did absolutely nothing. It is amazing the government took office after being in opposition for as long as it had and did not know what the major problem in Canada was and or know how to deal with it. We heard: "Give us a year. We did not realize how serious the situation was. We need some time to have a look at it and see if we can do something about it". It wasted a whole year. The government had been in opposition supposedly preparing to take office.

Then we hear the government inherited the problem. At first the government would not even admit that it was a problem. What we heard about the deficit was: "Do not be too concerned about it. Be happy. It is all right. Take an Aspirin, go to bed, wake up in the morning and you will be fine".

We were honest with the Canadian voters. We said this is a serious problem when we were campaigning. We were the only party to put in writing a plan to eliminate the deficit in three years with no new or increased taxes. We are the only party that had the courage to do that. We produced a document which actually had some numbers in it, not a red book full of rhetoric; a masterpiece of writing, an absolute fairy tale.

We did worse than waste a year in the first budget. In that first year we gave away what it said was to be $350 million when we gave in to the smugglers. The government said it would cost only $350 million; $350 million when we were in debt to the point that we were is unbelievable. However, we found out later the government's numbers were wrong. It underestimated by about $500 million-only $500 million.

In effect we gave away almost a billion dollars to the smugglers when we were so deep in debt and in overspending it was absolutely unbelievable. That is typical. It is avoidance of this issue and here again is where the gun control bill comes in, smoke and mirrors, let us hide the fact that we are not dealing with the real problem.

I am looking forward to the next election because what happened in the House yesterday has absolutely ensured a victory for the only party listening to the Canadian voter and that will respond to the concerns we are hearing.

[Business Of The House, June 9th, 1995]

It will not come into effect for eight years. The Liberals have made a major issue of something that is not a major issue. They have not been dealing with major issues like the deficit and debt, the criminal justice system and creating jobs. Those are the issues Canadian people want addressed and they are not being addressed. Gun control was just a sham to make the government look like a government in action.

When we talk about the gun control bill I hear comments from the other side indicating that it is supported by the people. That support is diminishing. When we ask people whether they support gun control they answer: "Yes, we do". When we ask them whether they think it will achieve a reduction in crime they answer: "No, we do not". They support gun control and admitat the same time that it will not do what the government says itwill do.

How do we adjust to that? Why would the government not respond to that?

[Business Of The House, June 9th, 1995]

That is right. The same thing in Manitoba.

On the basis of inflated opinion polls that have no depth and when the rubber hits the road as it did in Ontario and Manitoba, the real poll comes out and the voters respond to politicians who are not listening to them. I am proud to say I opted out of the pension plan and all my Reform colleagues have opted out of it. I am looking forward to the next federal election. I am looking forward to a debate on MPs pension plans, anytime, anywhere, anyplace. I would relish it.

I have mixed emotions when I deal with the matter. While I want change on the one hand, I am absolutely convinced the Liberals are digging a hole they will never get out of. They are ensuring a Reform victory in 1997. There is no question about it. They do not understand. They are not listening.

They think they won the election. They did not win the election. The Conservatives lost it. The Conservatives were thrown out. The Liberals just happened to be there. Canadian voters were very sure of what they did not want. They were not too sure who they should vote for but the message was that Canadian voters were voting on the issues. They are watching the politicians. They are watching the promises being made and for integrity. Not following through on the promises made will cost them very dearly in the next election. So many of the promises in the red book have been broken at this point that I cannot see how the Liberals can possibly survive.

We just had an indication of how good the red book is because the daughter of red book that was used in Ontario did them absolutely no good at all. It destroyed them.

So much for pensions. I dealt with pensions because even though it is not a whole lot of dollars it is a major issue with the Canadian voter. It was in 1993 and it will be even bigger in 1997. There is no question about it because our financial position will have worsened, absolutely. There is no doubt about that. With the road the government is taking us down our debt situation will be far worse than it is today. We will be $600 billion in debt. We will still be overspending by $25 billion and we will have interest payments of $50 billion a year. When we try to balance the books to accommodate $50 billion in interest payments it is a real challenge for any government. The Liberals are not meeting their target.

Let us talk about the gun control bill, one of the three being rammed through the House so that we do not have quality debate and we as the opposition do not get an opportunity to fully air all concerns. The gun control bill is a red herring. It is a smoke screen. It is an attempt to make the government look like a government in action. If we asked Canadian people what the 10 most important issues are in Canada today, gun control would not make 11. Here we are wasting all this time and all this discussion on a bill that will do absolutely nothing to clean up the problems it is supposed to address: unsafe homes, unsafe streets and unsafe communities. It will do absolutely nothing.

[Business Of The House, June 9th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to speak against extending the hours.

It seems to me that we have a contradiction on the basis of what happened yesterday. We have the government invoking closure three times so that it can ram through some very unpopular legislation. On the one hand, time allocation or closure is being forced on the House. On the other hand, we are talking about extending the hours.

If the government were serious about quality discussion and quality debate on any of the bills, the last thing it should be looking at is closure so that we cannot have a full airing and debate of issues that are important to the Canadian people.

In view of what happened in this place yesterday and what happened in the province of Ontario, it is interesting that closure was being rammed through the House on three very contentious bills. At the same time voters in Ontario went to the polls and rejected the bills, the government is attempting to ram through the House of Commons. It is unbelievable.

It raises the suspicion that perhaps that was the agenda, that some very unpopular bills were not to be allowed to remain in the public arena for further exposure because things are starting to fall apart and they have to be rammed through. The wheels are falling off. MP pension plans, gun control and undefined sexual orientation are three issues that were overwhelmingly defeated in the Ontario provincial election.

The government talks about zilch co-operation coming from the opposition. In my experience there has been zilch shown by the government in the way in which it has organized its agenda and brought to the Canadian people very important issues that need to be discussed.

Two other things were very big factors in the Ontario election. One was that the common sense revolution was very much opposed to employment equity or hiring quotas based on race and sex, another bill the government is determined to put through in spite of the fact that it has been rejected by the people of the province of Ontario.

I should like to talk a bit about the three bills because they are key to closure and trying to ram through legislation. I will start with the MPs pension plan. While it does not represent a whole lot of dollars, it is the flashpoint with the Canadian voter.

We have seen it in Alberta where the premier of that province started out a campaign being less than double digit in the opinion polls. He started to listen to the people and realized that a gold plated pension plan was not supported in any way by them. Therefore he did away with it in Alberta. As a result he gained some credibility and the people started listening to him. It was leadership by example. Somebody was showing real concern for the problem of overspending and debt by doing something about a gold plated pension plan.

Let us move into Ontario. Mr. Harris stood and said that the gold plated pension plan was gone. That was a big part of his platform. It was the part of his platform that gave Mr. Harris the credibility he needed when he addressed other issues. Two provinces have addressed the concern and because of it have been rewarded by tremendous support by the voters. It is unbelievable that the message has not reached the House. The government thinks the bit of tinkering done on the bill will satisfy Canadian voters. It is an absolute sham.

When I was campaigning and after I was elected I cannot think of a public meeting where questions and comments were invited at which the issue of the MPs pension plan did not come up. Voter after voter said to get rid of it, and I agree. It is an abuse of our office. We want fair compensation. There is no argument about that, but the pension plan is not fair. It should be made more in line with what is available in the private sector.

Here we have an issue of high profile that touches all Canadian voters. Many of our citizens would love to have pension plans. Some do not have them. Some are struggling without work. Many people are unemployed. Indeed many young people are underemployed. Because the government is showing no leadership in attacking that serious problem the dilemma continues.

The MPs pension plan is nothing more than another broken red book promise. I know the red book was loosely worded. I have suggested that perhaps it should have started out with: "Once upon a time". The problem with loose wording is that while it may get us off the hook by saying that we did not exactly say this or this is what we meant to say, the voters will make the same interpretation and say that they think this is what was said. When we do not follow through it is indeed a broken promise to voters.

The comment made by my colleague from Calgary Centre about the $150,000 compensation has been referred to many times by the opposition. The point that was missed and continues to be missed by the government was that whatever our compensation the total package should be up front and on the table with no special deals and no tax exempt expense accounts. That was the point he was making regardless of the number. Perhaps he used the wrong number, but the main point he was making was that whatever we were to be paid should be up front and fair and we should make sure that all Canadian people know exactly what we are being paid.

It goes back to the heart of credibility. Because of the failure of the government to attack and do something about the gold plated pension plan it lost all credibility on the deficit and the debt. How can we go to Canadian voters and ask them to accept

spending cuts when we are not prepared to show some leadership by example in making some sacrifice?

The thing that continues to mystify me on the pension plan is that poll after poll clearly indicates Canadian people overwhelmingly want the plan changed. It is not even close. When a poll is broken down by party affiliation, the Liberal supporters also show overwhelming support for having it changed.

We might have a problem with what is known as selective hearing. We hear what we want to hear and we ignore what the Canadian people are really saying.

Money should never be the motivating factor for coming to this place. I do not think it is with many members. When I came to this place I had no idea of what the total package was and frankly I could care less. I was more concerned about the issues and bringing some fiscal sanity to this place. Compensation was secondary. We do not dispute there should be fair compensation. That is all Canadian people are asking for.

The arrogance and the contempt for Parliament shown yesterday in the House have to be coming from the inflated popularity opinion poll numbers that are coming out. Liberals think they can do no wrong and the people love them. We saw what happened in Ontario to a Liberal party that thought it was up in the polls and could no wrong. It said: "We will do nothing. We won't rock the boat. We will just ride this out".

[Minister Of Canadian Heritage, June 9th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, her credentials were not questioned in any way. I asked if the Prime Minister was aware that a donation had been made to that fund before the appointment was made. The question was not answered.

Canadians want ethical and honest government. The success of Mike Harris' populous grassroots campaign proves that. Instead of honesty and ethics, the Liberals are giving Canadians the same old Mulroney style government they had from the Progressive Conservatives.

The Minister of Canadian Heritage specifically targeted clients of his department, invited them to a dinner to pay off his campaign debts and then rewarded all of them, every single one, with grants, contracts and chairmanships. This is a direct conflict of interest and it is about time the government recognized this.

What is this government afraid of? Why will it not release the invitation list of those who contributed to the dinner? Why will the Minister of Canadian Heritage not do the honourable thing and resign?

[Minister Of Canadian Heritage, June 9th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, I guess that is a question mark.

The Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and the heritage minister have suggested all the information on this matter has been made public. However, the heritage minister refuses to provide the House with a list of the people invited and those who contributed to the dinner.

With the latest revelation that Guylaine Saucier donated $1,000 to the minister's debt fund and was appointed chairman of the CBC six months later, we have to wonder who did not get a contract from the minister's private dinner.

When the Prime Minister appointed Guylaine Saucier as chairman of the CBC, did he know she had contributed $1,000 to the heritage minister's debt fund?