Mario Laframboise

[Technical Assistance for Law Enforcement in the 21st Century Act, October 29th, 2009]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has raised an interesting question that merits thorough study in committee.

In theory, we will have to assess the direct impact on the status of investigations that are under way at the end of the review period or whenever the review period is called for, whether that is five years from now or some other time. We will have to see.

That is the kind of great work we can do in committee. We can talk about it with representatives of law enforcement agencies and Justice Canada, who will help us figure out how to conduct a review without jeopardizing investigations already under way. If we can find a solution, this might be a useful and intelligent way to approach things, given technological change, as my colleague said. That would be good, but we must not jeopardize the investigations going on in five years' time just because we have to conduct an automatic review.

Earlier, I gave an example of what the Bloc Québécois proposed in the House. When we recommended abolishing parole after serving one-sixth of a sentence, we knew that two white collar criminals—Vincent Lacroix and Earl Jones—were about to plead guilty just so they would not be subject to a new law that would prevent them from being eligible for parole after serving one-sixth of their sentences. I would not want the House to pass a bill like that, and then five years from now, if there is a review, jeopardize investigations under way or give people an excuse to delay or speed up legal investigations just so they can benefit from some kind of leniency. We have to be careful about that. But if we can find a way around that problem, I think that a review would be appropriate as long as we have buy-in from the police community and other stakeholders when it comes to rights and freedoms.

[Technical Assistance for Law Enforcement in the 21st Century Act, October 29th, 2009]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, this gives me the opportunity to point out once again that the Bloc Québécois was the first party to propose reversing the burden of proof for criminal organizations regarding goods acquired through the proceeds of crime. So, yes, we have plenty of experience in the fight against crime.

Of course, it is important that we have the opportunity in committee to analyze and study the points raised by my hon. colleague. That will give us a chance to hear some explanations and allow the department to give some examples of what is happening in the world. It will also allow groups, especially the Privacy Commissioner and privacy advocates, to come and give their point of view. We need to be able to strike a balance in that regard. We will see the results in Bill C-47 in the end.

That is how the process goes. We must be able to hear witnesses and find the best solution. Perhaps we will end up with what the hon. member is proposing. However, once again, the Conservative way is to impose regulations and avoid all debate. It is important to listen to people in society, both those who are in favour and those who have concerns, in order to be able to make an informed decision later. After listening to all those interested in this matter, we will be able to tell them our decision. The Bloc Québécois plans to wait until the committee stage is complete before making a decision.

[Technical Assistance for Law Enforcement in the 21st Century Act, October 29th, 2009]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-47, An Act regulating telecommunications facilities to support investigations, or the Technical Assistance for Law Enforcement in the 21st Century Act. This bill was introduced on June 18, 2009. It deals with very specific aspects of the rules governing lawful access. Lawful access is an investigative technique used by law enforcement agencies and national security agencies that involves intercepting communications and seizing information where authorized by law.

Rules relating to lawful access are set out in a number of federal statutes, in particular the Criminal Code, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act and the National Defence Act. This bill therefore complements the current lawful access regime. In fact, it addresses the same two issues as the former Bill C-71: technical interception capabilities of telecommunications service providers and requests for subscriber information.

Other aspects of the lawful access regime are addressed in Bill C-46, which was introduced on the same day as Bill C-47.

Bill C-47 addresses a concern expressed by law enforcement agencies, which contend that new technologies, particularly Internet communications, often present obstacles to lawful communications interception. The bill compels telecommunications service providers to have the capability to intercept communications made using their networks, regardless of the transmission technology used. It also provides law enforcement agencies with access, under an accelerated administrative process without a warrant or court order, to basic information about telecommunications service subscribers. At the same time, the bill provides for certain protection measures in clauses 16 to 23.

The Bloc Québécois will support this bill in principle, because it is designed to enable the police to adapt their investigative techniques to modern technological realities, such as the widespread use of cellphones and the Internet. Facilitating police work, where it does not unduly interfere with fundamental rights, is an avenue the Bloc Québécois has always advocated for fighting crime. Our party feels that increasing the likelihood of getting caught is a much greater deterrent than increasing punishments, which often seem remote and abstract.

This campaign that the Conservative Party has been running for the past three years is merely an attempt to show the public that it is tough on crime. It is always amusing to see the Conservative members acting like sheep, repeating over and over again that they are tough on crime, when the Bloc Québécois was the first party in this House to really tackle organized crime groups. The House will recall the whole debate raised by the Bloc Québécois to bring in real legislation to fight organized crime. This has produced solid results in Quebec with the operations conducted by the Government of Quebec and the Sûreté du Québec against organized crime groups.

Of course all this legislation is needed. Just trying to manipulate public opinion, as the Conservatives are doing, is not enough. We must really achieve our objectives. That is what the Bloc Québécois has always set out to do. One way of doing so is by helping police forces when they ask us to make certain changes, and this bill is the result of one such request.

The same was true for the fight against organized crime groups. The Bloc Québécois proposed reversing the burden of proof. Before that amendment to the Criminal Code, it was up to the Crown to prove that the money used or the goods acquired by criminal groups really were the proceeds of criminal activity, which was more difficult. Now, the burden of proof is reversed, so when an individual is part of a criminal organization and is charged, all of the goods acquired are automatically assumed to have been acquired through criminal activity.

Accused persons now have to prove that they acquired certain goods through legal means. This has helped break up major organized crime networks. That is how to go about things. We have to try to get to the heart of the problem.

The Bloc Québécois has always been critical of the Conservative Party for wanting to stir up the public's imagination when a crime has been committed and the media blow it out of proportion. The Conservative Party members immediately try to show that the judges are not doing their jobs and that we need minimum sentences. In reality, the judges are doing their jobs. Every case is unique.

In the case of white collar criminals, what the Bloc introduced in this House was simple. We asked the House to unanimously pass a bill that would prevent white collar criminals from getting parole after serving one-sixth of their sentence. Two white collar criminals, Vincent Lacroix and Earl Jones, were getting ready to plead guilty. They were both planning to plead guilty so that they could be released on parole after serving one-sixth of their sentences. The Conservatives want to be the only ones who are truly tough on crime. Like good little sheep, they have chosen that for their slogan.

In all of this, there are two criminals experts do not agree on. Vincent Lacroix pleaded guilty. Experts say that even if the Conservatives introduce their bill and it is passed by this House, those people, given that they have already pleaded guilty, would be eligible for parole after one-sixth of their sentences. The Conservatives just want to score political points. That is the Conservative way of doing things, an approach inspired by the Republicans in the United States.

In Quebec, people are not fooled. We have been through this and we want to address the real problem. That is what the Bloc Québécois has always defended in the House. The Bloc feels that it is important to study Bill C-47, which the police have called for. The Bloc is in favour of passing this bill.

Earlier, I heard my NDP colleagues say that they will be opposing this bill and that is probably because it is not in keeping with their political ideology. Personally, I believe that this bill should be studied in committee in order to make improvements. That is the objective. That is the advantage we have when considering bills. We can send them to committee and call witnesses. Police representatives will tell us what they need. In this way, those opposed to certain aspects of this bill can be heard. The Bloc Québécois realizes that the bill raises a number of concerns about privacy issues and the justifications for breaches of privacy.

This bill will make it possible to obtain information from cellphones and Internet networks. In short, the police want cellphone or Internet service providers to capture messages and deliver them to the police when needed for investigations. That directly affects privacy. The Bloc Québécois is aware of this. We want to strengthen police powers so they can deal with organized criminals and their complex networks. At the same time, we must prevent serious intrusions into the private lives of citizens. One way to do this is to vote for Bill C-47 at this stage and send it to committee. We will then be able to call various witnesses to shed light on the issues. That is simple logic.

I am a notary by training. In Quebec, notaries deal primarily with real estate law and personal law in connection with wills and the lives of individuals. But the law is often a matter of simple logic. All too often, for partisan purposes, attempts are made to force the logic. That is not a good thing in the long term.

The Americans have filled their prisons with criminals. They have invented new sentences. In a statement made a few months ago, President Obama said there were 25,000 too many prisoners in the prisons and the country had no money to supervise them. Inevitably, those are the facts. The Conservatives have been introducing bills dealing with the justice system virtually every other day lately, for purely partisan purposes. Those are the facts. They are trying to box their Liberal opponents in. They say the Liberals are soft on crime and they are tough on crime.

That is a lot of work to manipulate public opinion, because that is all they want to do. The Conservatives are experts at that. To justify their tough on crime reputation, they have to create new crimes. They have to be able to constantly attack the justice system, to keep saying it is not enough. Inevitably, the result is the one the Americans have achieved. Crime has not declined, because they have simply created new crimes. The number of criminals is going up.

That means more criminals at large or behind bars. It means more criminals at large because the ones who are non-violent inevitably have to be released. When they are sent to prison, there is not enough staff to be able to give them adequate support, to try to prepare them for reintegration into society. But when they return to society, they are returning from spending time in the crime industry. They went to prison and met criminals, who recruited them. They get out of prison and commit more crimes.

That is the circle the Republicans created in the United States. It is easy to understand. There are no analyses to prove that the tougher you are on crime, the fewer criminals there are. The opposite is true: the tougher you are on crime, the more criminals there are getting out because we are simply not able to provide support for them. We would have to invest too much to try to staff the prisons adequately, to be able to provide psychological and other support for all these criminals. Inevitably, that is the result we achieve. The criminals are left to their own devices when they get out of these crime factories, the prisons. They commit more crimes. Every country that has adopted policies like that has more criminals at large and more crimes are committed. Those are the facts.

It is paying off politically for the Conservatives in the short term. They are determined to win their election. But we can see that it has the opposite effect. The tougher they are on crime, the more they try to manipulate public opinion, the fewer people want to give them a majority. Once again, after the next election campaign, we will probably have another minority government.

The bills that have been introduced this week all related to the justice system. There was nothing introduced in this House that dealt with any subject other than the justice system. The Conservatives have seen that the next political opening for an election will probably be in the spring. They want to try to score points with their base, with voters who are very disappointed with how they are managing the economy.

We have reached a deficit of nearly $50 billion. Looking at the quality of the hon. members and government ministers opposite, I do not think that this figure will come down. There are no experts there to counter this astronomical shortfall. History shows that every time the Conservatives have been in power, they have run a deficit. That is the reality and it will not change. They managed to turn an annual surplus of about $15 billion into a $50 billion deficit. They try to tell us it was because of the international economic crisis. They are the ones, though, who decided to reduce the GST, which deprived us of $14 billion. That was a choice. They chose to take a surplus and turn it into a deficit. I do not see how they will be able to return to a surplus position. Under their regime, it is impossible. We will need a change of government to do that.

In the meantime, we will have to be very vigilant. Bill C-47 is a good example.

The police forces are asking us to take action. They want to employ new investigative techniques and use electronic surveillance to monitor cellphone conversations and discussions on the Internet.

I think this is a reasonable thing for the police to do, provided there is a framework to protect privacy. Quebeckers and all citizens are entitled to think that their government will respect their private lives. A balance has to be found.

I am sure that in this matter Quebeckers can have confidence in the members of the Bloc Québécois, who have always stood up in the House to find a balance. I often say that the Bloc Québécois and Quebeckers are the conscience of America because we have seen all kinds of abuses and Quebec society has managed through its history to counter abuses.

One fine example is the investment that Quebec and Quebeckers made in their hydroelectric system, without any help from the federal government. I like to remind people of this because colleagues from all parties in the House forget all too often that Quebec’s hydroelectric system was paid for entirely with the money of Quebeckers. There was no assistance from the federal government, which never gave a red cent. Nothing. Zero.

We have learned recently that an agreement is being discussed and will probably be signed today between the Government of Quebec and the Government of New Brunswick giving Hydro-Québec control over the New Brunswick hydroelectric grid. Once again, there is not one cent of federal money involved. It all came from Quebeckers, who have been real visionaries in this regard.

As a well-balanced society, Quebeckers did not want, even 25 years ago, to focus on polluting energies like oil, coal or nuclear power. That is the reality. It was a choice that Quebeckers made because their social conscience was more advanced than that of the rest of America. Quebeckers decided to invest. We have to give them that. Insofar as fighting poverty is concerned, Quebec is probably the best society and nation in the Americas for distributing wealth between rich and poor. That is a societal choice.

In North America, Quebeckers would be the ones most prepared to fight climate change. They would have been prepared to sign the Kyoto protocol and to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions by 6%, using 1992 as the reference year.

Quebec was prepared to do that. It could now be negotiating directly with the states of the European Union and participating in an international carbon exchange. Its companies could now be selling credits for huge amounts of money. But Quebec is once again trapped by the Canadian solution. Perhaps one day there will be a carbon exchange in Canada, but once again, Quebec will not be able to sell at reasonable prices because the European Union is a much larger society than Canada.

I had the chance to meet the mayor of Rivière-du-Loup last fall. He told us that if Quebec and Canada had participated in an international carbon exchange, he could have sold his emission credits because he was able to cut $1 million worth of emissions. As a result, the city of Rivière-du-Loup lost $1 million.

Once again, the Bloc Québécois believes we should be balanced, as Quebec always is, when it comes to Bill C-47. I repeat that we must allow police forces to adapt their investigative techniques. The police must have the ability to force cellphone and Internet providers to allow them to listen to conversations or read Internet communications, while still respecting privacy.

As I explained earlier, the Bloc Québécois is in favour of Bill C-47. But obviously, what we want and will demand is to hear from witnesses both from police forces and from people who are worried about the invasion of their privacy. That will happen in committee.

[Federal Bridge Corporation, October 26th, 2009]

Mr. Speaker, I have another example for the minister. Serge Martel, a Jacques Cartier and Champlain Bridges Incorporated board member, donated $250 at a Conservative Party fundraising cocktail party. As it happens, he also worked on the merger between the Canadian Alliance and the Conservative Party.

Does the minister deny that all of these appointments are starting to look suspiciously like a system?

[Federal Bridge Corporation, October 26th, 2009]

Mr. Speaker, we will see who ends up looking desperate.

If we dig a little, we discover that not only was one of the directors, Raymond Brunet, a construction company owner, appointed by the Minister of Foreign Affairs, but he also contributed to the minister's election fund. Neutral and impartial? I think not.

Does the minister acknowledge that Raymond Brunet's appointment to the board of the Federal Bridge Corporation was not mere happenstance and that it proves a system exists to reward Conservative cronies?

[Federal Sustainable Development Act, October 26th, 2009]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to speak on behalf of the Bloc Québécois about Bill S-216, An Act to amend the Federal Sustainable Development Act and the Auditor General Act (involvement of Parliament). Bill S-216 was introduced on January 27 and came before the House on May 14. As I just said, it would amend the Federal Sustainable Development Act and the Auditor General Act in two main ways. First, it would give the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development the opportunity to submit audits of government reports to Parliament more than once a year if he or she wishes to do so.

Under the Federal Sustainable Development Act, the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development is responsible for producing an annual report to be tabled in the House of Commons on a specific date. The report addresses issues that the commissioner wishes to draw to the attention of the House, particularly with respect to the government's progress toward implementing the federal sustainable development strategy. The Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development is also responsible for auditing data in reports that the sustainable development office is required to submit to the minister at least once every three years, reports that are then tabled in Parliament.

By law, the commissioner is currently required to include these audits in his or her annual report. Amendments to the Federal Sustainable Development Act will enable the commissioner to include the results of these audits in an Auditor General's report.

The Bloc Québécois supports Bill S-216, especially because the environment is becoming a bigger and bigger issue. Recent surveys have shown that more and more Canadians from all over Canada believe that the Government of Canada's performance on the environment has been terrible. Quebeckers seem to have the harshest words to say about the Conservative government. I cannot over-emphasize just how important this issue has become. I have risen in the House several times now to discuss bills.

People are talking about a navigable Arctic passage. That is not something we should ever have had to discuss in this House. The Arctic should have remained frozen solid forever. But because of global warming, people are now talking about developing an Arctic waterway and protecting navigable waters. This is all going to hurt future generations. Bloc members have always risen in the House to speak up for environmental issues, and we will do so again today.

It is good that the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development would be able to submit the results of audits more than once a year, since environmental issues are becoming increasingly important to Quebeckers and Canadians.

Second, Bill S-216 states that the report of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development must now be laid before each House of Parliament. Members are familiar with the Bloc's position regarding the Senate. I will have the opportunity to explain our position and to speak about the money wasted by the Government of Canada on the Senate.

Nevertheless, the work of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development is necessary, especially since it is clear that the Conservative government has a far from impressive record when it comes to the environment and sustainable development. International specialized journals have called the oil sands industry the most polluting industry on the planet. So it is important that the Commissioner examine this issue, so that we do not end up being the laughingstock of the world.

The Commissioner wanted greater powers to intervene. In his last report, he indicated that the government’s progress toward providing guidance to departments on greening their operations was unsatisfactory. The Conservatives' targets are non-specific. They reiterate previous objectives, are non-binding, and are open to interpretation. In short, the Conservative government's development strategies are not focused on achieving effective results. The plan is incomplete and does not incorporate the targets.

Even if the government committed itself to becoming a leader in terms of the environment and sustainable development, it lacks the leadership and the will. So, the Commissioner is asking for more and more powers. The Bloc Québécois supports this request, which was the impetus for Bill S-216 before us today.

This brings me to the question of the Senate. The Bloc Québécois has long called for the Senate to be abolished. I would remind the House that in 1996, a Bloc Québécois member, Paul Crête, moved a motion calling on the government to abolish the Senate. We are in favour of abolishing the Senate. Indeed, senators have no democratic legitimacy, since they are not elected. It is practically irrevocable; they are appointed until the age of 75. They have the authority to oppose measures passed by the House of Commons, whose members are elected. In this democracy, unelected officials can oppose the decisions of elected officials. They are not selected based on merit. They are appointed based on purely partisan criteria.

In 1993, Brian Mulroney appointed David Angus, who was the Conservative Party's chief fundraiser and chairman of the PC Canada fund from 1983 to 1993. He is currently a director and chairman emeritus of the Conservative Party of Canada fund. Thus, his appointment was purely partisan.

The Liberals did the same thing. Senator Céline Hervieux-Payette was appointed in 1995. Since 2007, she has been the Quebec lieutenant for the Liberal Party of Canada. She spends practically all of her time on electoral organization. The same is true of Senator Dawson and Senator Fox, two former MPs who were appointed to the Senate in 2005 by Paul Martin. They are actively involved in organization. I find this amusing, because Senator Fox's son is my rival, the Liberal Party candidate in my riding. I see him at all the discussion forums. I have also noted that he spends all of his time playing politics. I also find it amusing that Senator Fox does not have the courage to run against me. I have often challenged him. If he had any courage, he would have left his position in the Senate and faced me in an election, but no, he prefers to sacrifice his son, whom I will easily beat hands down during the next election. That is the Liberals' choice.

Recently, the Conservatives appointed Senator Léo Housakos and Senator Claude Carignan, who are party organizers. This morning, ruefrontenac.com, the site set up by Journal de Montréal employees who are on lock-out, ran a headline that said, “Léo Housakos—Tory insider raises funds for a number of parties in Quebec”. Those parties include Union Montréal, Gérald Tremblay's party, Action démocratique du Québec—we saw that in the news on the weekend—Vision Montréal, when it was controlled by Benoit Labonté, and the Conservative Party of Canada. A senator appointed by the Conservatives is a fundraiser for a number of political parties.

Again, why have a Senate full of political party organizers who are paid by the government to manage election campaigns for each of the parties, the Conservatives or the Liberals? It all depends on the partisan appointments. The Senate is expensive. Why have a second chamber? We are quite capable, here in the House of Commons, of defending the interests of the public. Again, we are legislators elected by the public.

In 2006-07, according to the public accounts, the Senate cost $81 million, essentially to duplicate the work of the House of Commons. That $81 million could have been invested in health or in dealing with greenhouse gases. Many other things could have been done with that money. No province has had an upper chamber since 1968. Quebec did away with its upper chamber a long time ago. It is interesting to note that members of several provincial upper chambers once had to earn their election. At least some provinces elected the members of their upper chamber. Prince Edward Island's legislative council was elected as of 1862, and the Province of Canada's as of 1857.

Even though it was the Senate that introduced this bill, we will vote in favour of it to protect the environment.

[Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime Act, October 22nd, 2009]

Madam Speaker, yes, and that was very eloquent.

I said earlier that the problem with the Conservatives is that they do not read the Quebec papers. It was very telling to see the analyses in the press, even the ones by legal experts, because they were clearly divided on the issue. Most said, though, that under this bill, people like Guy Lafleur would have automatically been sentenced to prison. It is amazing how the Conservatives are determined to replace the justice system. There is a reason we have been asking them for two days to cite one case where a criminal who committed fraud over $1 million was sentenced to less than two years in prison.

Earlier, a Conservative finally gave us an answer and named cases. The Bloc Québécois experts and I have taken note of them. We have to be careful. We are talking about cases, crimes and sentences in recent case law. There have been many such cases in Quebec and the rest of Canada recently. We are talking about case law that is up to date, because it evolves. Obviously, cases affect other cases and form case law, which evolves over time. It is therefore important to consider the latest cases and trends. We will check. Lately, at least for rulings handed down in Quebec in the case of fraud over $1 million, offenders have been sentenced to more than two years in prison.

That is not the problem. Vincent Lacroix was given a civil sentence of eight years imprisonment because the sentences were for terms of less than two years cumulatively. He was able to get out after 16 months incarceration because he was eligible for parole after serving one-sixth of his sentence. That is the problem identified by all victims and all Quebeckers who saw Vincent Lacroix plead guilty immediately after the Bloc Québécois presented its motion.

We had unanimously requested in this House that the provision of release after serving one-sixth of sentence be abolished for white collar criminals. The Conservatives said no. Two days later, Vincent Lacroix pleaded guilty in order to avoid serving his full sentence of 15 years, which would have been the case under the Bloc Québécois proposal to abolish parole after serving one-sixth of a sentence.

The Conservatives' inertia made it possible for Vincent Lacroix to be sentenced and to be free in two and a half years. That is the reality. That is how the Conservatives play petty politics with the topic of the day. The Conservative members say they are tough on crime but in the end they just follow along blindly. The result is that Vincent Lacroix pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 15 years imprisonment but will be out on the streets in two and a half years.

[Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime Act, October 22nd, 2009]

Madam Speaker, in answer to the first part of my colleague's question, I would say that the Conservatives are using the justice system for purely partisan purposes. “Tough on crime” is a snappy little sound bite. It is easy to fit into speeches. The Conservative members have been well trained, like sheep, and they all know how to say “tough on crime”. However, actually being tough on crime is something else entirely. My colleague raised some good points about that.

Proclaiming that one is tough on crime is not what it takes to unanimously pass a bill eliminating conditional release, as the Bloc Québécois proposed, to prevent white collar criminals from being put back in the community after serving 16 or 18 months of an eight-year sentence. That is what happened with Vincent Lacroix, who is expected to spend two and a half years of his 15-year criminal sentence in jail. He was sentenced to eight years on civil charges. He will be back on our streets in two and a half years.

It was simple enough. We were not trying to play partisan politics, and we were not getting all dramatic, saying we were tough on crime. We just did not want criminals to be back on the streets after serving one-sixth of their sentence. It was not that hard to understand, but apparently, it was a little too complicated for the Conservatives.

[Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime Act, October 22nd, 2009]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Bloc Québécois to Bill C-52 relating to economic crimes.

I am particularly pleased because our colleague from Abitibi—Témiscamingue had an opportunity today to deliver the main position of the Bloc Québécois. As we know, before our colleague from Abitibi—Témiscamingue became a member of this House, he was a criminal lawyer for 30 years.

We also have our justice critic, the member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, who is also a criminal lawyer, and who of course was Attorney General of Quebec and was also a senior official in the ministère de la Sécurité publique in Quebec.

When the Bloc Québécois analyzes bills, it does so thoroughly. For two days now, the Bloc Québécois has been asking the Minister of Justice to provide a list of the cases in which criminals and fraud artists defrauded people of over $1 million and were then given sentences of less than two years.

For two days, our Conservative colleagues have had their research service working on it. This has to be examined, because we must never forget that the legal system we have inherited from our parents and our grandparents is based on precedent, and so is obviously a constantly evolving system. I hope the examples the Conservatives have cited for us are recent law and are new decisions or the most recent decisions.

It is too easy to engage in demagoguery, particularly when it comes from the Conservatives, because they have decided to do politics the easy way. It pays to be tough on crime, because often the public listens to the media, and obviously both the press and the electronic media often sell papers or attract viewers by inflating a news item and trying to sensationalize it. That is how our democratic societies work, and that is fine.

The public can make up their own minds. They watch more than one television network. They are not all the same. They can read more than one newspaper and they do not all have the same opinions on a subject. That is fine. Except that when a political party like the Conservative Party decides to jump to conclusions, it is very easy and it is demagoguery at its worst when they try to take a single trend and apply it to a party’s agenda. And they think this is the way to win elections.

Obviously, they may think this has borne fruit for them, except that in Quebec, Quebeckers are much more vigilant in terms of how justice is administered, and they get to the bottom of things. That is why, election after election, a majority of the members they elect to this House are from the Bloc Québécois, which gets to the bottom of things before taking positions.

In Quebec, we have had to deal with major white-collar crime cases. We are talking about the Norbourg case, with Lacroix, and the Earl Jones case. Obviously, these are perfect examples of criminals who have abused the system. These fraud artists had built up their system over a number of years. These were not occasional frauds. These are criminals who built an entire empire, one that made a lot of profit for them personally. They were able to live the high life, they had a wonderful life, and obviously, with the outcomes we have seen when the economic crisis hit, everything collapsed and all the houses of cards they had built crumbled.

This clearly left victims, people who lost a lot of money, in distress. Once again, when I talk about a government’s skill at exploiting public opinion, that is what it is trying to make us believe, that Bill C-52 is going to solve the problem.

What the victims of Vincent Lacroix and Earl Jones are looking for is to recover their money. It is wrong to say that the bill will enable victims to do so. It will not make recovery of the money possible.

Once again, it is all very well to say the guilty person will be required to reimburse something, but they have to have assets left to do so. The fact of the matter is that, in the cases of Vincent Lacroix and Earl Jones, it becomes clear very quickly that the money has disappeared because they had set up the system years previously. Perhaps the Conservatives are fooled, but we in the Bloc Québécois are not. The money has disappeared and is probably to be found in tax havens protected by the government. The Bloc has, for a number of years now, called on both the Liberals at the time and the Conservatives to abolish tax havens, and they do nothing about it. This bill is not going to make it possible to recover all the funds in tax havens that might be held by white collar criminals. It has absolutely no impact on tax havens.

So, once again, the victims are stuck and for good reason. The Minister of Justice's strategy was to publicize this bill before introducing it in the House. Today, the leader of the Bloc Québécois rose on a point of order about this. I know that the Chair will consider the matter and rule on the Conservatives' new approach, which is to short-circuit the House of Commons. Our prime objective, however, is to enact legislation. This is the first time in the history of Canada that a government has decided, in an effort to influence public opinion, to release the bill directly in the media before parliamentarians have seen it.

Once again, why did they do it? Out of sheer partisanship. This is the Conservative approach to politics. I repeat. Quebeckers are not fooled. The people of the rest of Canada, however, clearly are fooled by the Conservatives' behaviour. That is their problem. Quebeckers have understood the messages. Nevertheless, for non partisan purposes, the Bloc, on our return to the House of Commons in September, sought the unanimous consent of the House to table a measure regarding the abolition of the granting of parole after one-sixth of a sentence has been served. The Conservatives will try to convince us that there must be a minimum sentence of two years for crimes involving over $1 million.

All that that accomplished—the fact that the Conservatives waited—is that criminals in Quebec, the Vincent Lacroix types of this world, are pleading guilty. Earl Jones is in the process of doing the same thing. Vincent Lacroix decided to plead guilty in September. Earl Jones is getting ready to plead guilty. They are doing so precisely to avoid having a bill, such as the one introduced by the Bloc Québécois to abolish parole after one-sixth of a sentence has been served, come into effect before they are sentenced, so they can be paroled after serving one-sixth of it. That was the twisted part. The victims are not reimbursed, and these criminals can be released after serving one-sixth of their sentence.

Vincent Lacroix was sentenced to eight years in prison. He got out after serving one-sixth, or 15 months, of his civil court sentence. He was sentenced in criminal court as well as a result of legal proceedings instituted by the AMF. He decided to plead guilty to these criminal charges. He was sentenced to 15 years in prison but will be eligible for release after serving one-sixth. This means we will see Vincent Lacroix back on our streets after two and a half years. That is what the Conservatives are trying to stuff down the throats of Quebeckers.

But Quebeckers have already moved on. They know we have to get rid of conditional release after one-sixth of the sentence for these criminals. Why? These criminals are obviously not what are usually considered dangerous. They have not committed armed robbery. Ultimately, though, they are just as dangerous because they get to their victims psychologically. I know, of course, that the Conservatives have a bit of a difficulty with psychology and things like that. I know quite a few of them who find that sort of thing difficult. But that is where Quebeckers are now, and that is what the Bloc Québécois expected.

In a spirit of non-partisanship, therefore, the Bloc Québécois is saying today that it will vote in favour of this bill so that it can be sent to committee and improved. As it now stands, it will not resolve the problems of the victims.

The minister’s attempt to hold a press conference to unveil his bill failed miserably because the victims were not convinced when it came to their two major problems: the reimbursement of their money and ensuring that these criminals do not return to our streets after two and a half or three years. This bill does nothing to resolve these two problems.

It is hard because we are dealing with a government that has the entire bureaucracy and tremendous resources at its disposal. It uses them to promote itself. It even makes cheques out with the Conservative Party logo on them. It is quite the thing to see them in action. They use government advertising dollars to sing the praises of their own political platform.

The Conservatives will not succeed, though, because they are not achieving the objectives, at least in Quebec. It is difficult for them because they are on the wrong path. We have experts here. The hon. member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin and the hon. member for Abitibi—Témiscamingue are well-known criminal lawyers. The hon. member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin was the Attorney General of Quebec. But the Conservatives are not listening to common sense.

That is the message the Bloc is delivering here. That is the hand that the Bloc reached out to the government in September. First the Bloc Québécois tried to show that there are criminals who are prepared to plead guilty because they will be eligible for parole anyway after serving a sixth of their sentence. Why not unanimously support a Bloc Québécois bill to abolish conditional release after a sixth of the sentence? That would prevent the Vincent Lacroix’s and Earl Jones’s of this world from serving a two-and-a-half year sentence when they should be serving 15 years. Even if they got a 25-year sentence, they would only serve a couple more years if they served just one-sixth. In that case, they would serve four years instead of two and a half before returning to the streets. That is the reality. We do not know whether a two-year minimum is enough. Lacroix got eight years and was released after 16 months. If he pleads guilty, he will be sentenced to 15 years in prison but will be back on our streets after two and a half years. That is the reality and that is what the victims find so infuriating.

The second problem has to do with restitution. There is no mention of compensation or a compensation fund in this bill. The Conservatives are introducing a compensation process by saying that the guilty party will have to compensate his victims. That already exists in the Criminal Code. The problem with organized fraud by the likes of Vincent Lacroix, Earl Jones or Cinar is that there is no solution in this bill. For weeks, the Bloc Québécois and its leader have been saying in this House that there was fraud in the case of Cinar. There was collusion at the Department of Justice under the Liberals. The press took note of that. Again, the Minister of Justice rose in this House to ask whether we had new information to reopen the case. We see new information in many of the newspapers in Quebec. They probably do not read newspapers from Quebec. We can see what impact it has on them politically not to do so. They would be well served to read the Quebec media, which has all the details on this affair. The people of Quebec have decided to clean house. They truly want white collar criminals to stay in prison for the duration of their sentence, be it 15, 20 or 25 years. Criminals have to serve their sentence.

People who lost their money want to be compensated whether it is the government that does so or not. Some may have submitted requests, but they want someone to go after the money hidden in tax havens by the criminals. People are under the impression, and I agree with them, that when the criminals get out after serving one-sixth of their sentence, or after a year and a half or two years and a half, they get on a boat or plane and are never seen again. They will live out their days under the sun thanks to the money they stole from their victims. It will be thanks to the Government of Canada because the elected members of this House will not have been intelligent enough to understand what the Bloc Québécois has been trying to say for over three years now.

Requests were submitted to the government In 2007 and again in 2009. We have been saying that the system needs to be fixed. It is time to take action. It is no time to be ideological and keep bleating about being tough on crime, as the Conservative MPs are doing. Tough on crime, tough on crime; it is rather redundant.

We have to be able to prevent white collar criminals, the likes of Vincent Lacroix and Earl Jones, from returning to society and the community after 16 months. That is what happened with Lacroix after his first trial even though he was sentenced to eight years imprisonment. He was recently sentenced to 15 years but in two and a half years he will be out again.

Quebeckers do not want this to happen any more. Victims who have lost money want restitution and want us to simply abolish tax havens because that is where the money is.

Once again, the member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin has proposed a special squad of accountants. The RCMP should set up such a squad to track the money in these tax havens.

I realize that this is a problem for the Conservatives. When tax havens are allowed and, through bilateral agreements with certain countries, you encourage citizens to invest money in them, you are not too keen on having the RCMP investigate the money that is transferred to these countries.

Those countries that have signed an agreement with Canada would surely call to tell us to not set up a squad to conduct investigations in their countries. We should simply break our ties with these countries and establish special squads of chartered accountants, specialized accountants and certified general accountants who would conduct investigations.

If we look back in history, Eliot Ness was finally able to charge Al Capone with the help of the US Internal Revenue Service. That is how they sentenced the most notorious criminal in America. It was not by trying to arrest him for crimes committed because they were never able to prove them. They convicted him of tax evasion and that is how they were able to nab him.

That is the reality. We must use our tax system in order to follow the money trail. Day in and day out, victims tell us that they do not understand how they were drawn into such an affair. What is worse, they find themselves back where they started but with no money.

Then we learn that people like Earl Jones and Vincent Lacroix have no money left. People find it very difficult to believe—as I do—that these fraudsters have gone through hundreds of millions of dollars just like that. Earl Jones traveled all around for three weeks before being taken into custody.

The authorities looked for him worldwide. Search calls went out. Was he in England or another country? We were told that he was here, but he was able to stash all his money away and that is what we need to find out. I understand why people are cynical. They are saying that since he pleaded guilty, no one can know what is going to happen and we will not learn any more. They are right because Canada does not have a specialized RCMP investigation team to trace those funds. That is a fact.

Once again, and with a great deal of respect from all the members of this House, the Bloc Québécois introduced such measures and called for the unanimous consent of the House, which we did not obtain. Our request was simple, that is, simply to abolish the practice of parole after one-sixth of the sentence for white collar criminals. Our request was not complicated. We asked for unanimous consent, and the Conservatives said no.

Yesterday the Minister of Public Works and Government Services told us that more research was needed and that it was complicated. However, it is not complicated to say that white-collar criminals will not be entitled to early parole and will have to serve their full sentence. It is not complicated. It would have been a simple question of adding a few paragraphs to the legislation. We can do that. But, no, they want to completely overhaul the entire parole system.

So for four years now, they have been amending the Criminal Code section by section, one at a time, according to what is happening in society. There is no Conservative plan to amend the Criminal Code. They are doing it piece by piece. When a crime is committed and the public interest has been captured by the media, they introduce a bill. In the case of parole, they have decided they want to make a number of amendments. Once again, the Conservatives should pay attention to the wisdom of Quebeckers, represented here by the Bloc Québécois.

[Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime Act, October 22nd, 2009]

Mr. Speaker, I would simply like to say to my colleague, who is a criminal lawyer and expert on the Criminal Code, that what victims want is restitution.

Will this bill provide victims with restitution?