Peter MacKay

[Charities Registration (Security Information) Act, April 30th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I as well am pleased to have an opportunity to put a few remarks on the record with respect to Bill C-16, which is a very important piece of legislation dealing with charitable organizations and regulations that relate to fundraising activities in Canada. I could not agree more with my hon. colleague from Winnipeg—Transcona that the process in which we are pursuing this matter is a very important part of the debate.

The Westray issue in particular is something of great interest to me as this tragedy occurred in Plymouth, Nova Scotia in the constituency of Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough. There was an unusual coming together of members of parliament on that issue of workplace safety and the broader implications that exist for those who can be injured in the workplace. We saw this past weekend recognition in a day of memorial, a day of remembering those who died in the workplace. We should be renewing our efforts in that regard as well.

To speak specifically to this issue, this is a piece of legislation that puts in place a judicial process by which the government would be able to deny charitable status to any group found to be supporting terrorist activity. Much of this, I suggest, will have to be fleshed out in terms of the organizational definition and the definition of terrorist activities, yet it is certainly a step in the right direction. It is a positive initiative which the Progressive Conservative Party will support in this initial stage.

This legislation is long overdue. The Conservative Party has been very consistent in calling upon the government to act in this direction to curtail terrorist activity in Canada. We qualify this support, realizing once again that the government tried to initially deal with this problem through avoidance. Since that did not work it has been literally shamed into bringing forward this legislation, which sadly does not go quite far enough. It is a typical legislative half measure. The support of our party therefore will hinge on our ability to bring forward amendments and to delve into greater detail at the committee level.

It is important that we send a message of deterrence and a message that rings throughout the country that this type of terrorist activity funding and enhancing of terrorist causes will not be perpetrated in Canada and will not be tolerated by government or by law enforcement communities. Other western countries have enacted similar legislation so Canada is following the leader in a sense. It is certainly important that ethnic Canadians are not coerced unknowingly into becoming charitable fronts for terrorist fundraising activities.

Canadians are a magnanimous people by nature. I know that in your part of the world in Kingston, Mr. Speaker, that could not be more true. Canadians generally want to give. They want to reach out and help. My colleague from Cumberland—Colchester raised the issue today of the need to do more to help other countries and to do more for the African AIDS epidemic where so many millions of people are suffering from this horrible disease.

Meanwhile we need to have some safeguards to ensure that these causes are genuine and that these fundraising activities are those in which the most amount of aid and assistance will actually be obtained by those groups. We need to ensure that in our effort to combat terrorism, legislation does not unfairly target legitimate, peaceful, law abiding fundraising groups, especially those fundraising groups of different ethnic backgrounds that engage in very valuable fundraising activities or initiatives for the betterment of their communities.

I am hopeful that we will be able to produce legislation that will improve public safety for the country and meet this balance that is required while not trampling on the rights of those who are in some instances very vulnerable citizens in this country and are making very legitimate efforts to try to assist those from their originating countries in their plight.

Bill C-16 sets up a process by which organizations supporting terrorist activities could be denied or lose their charitable status. If the solicitor general and the minister of revenue, after reviewing security and criminal intelligence reports, have reasonable grounds to believe that an organization makes or will make resources available to terrorism, they both would be required to sign a certificate. The organization would then be given notice of this certificate and the matter would be referred automatically to the federal court for a judicial review. The applicant would have the opportunity to apply to the federal court to have its identity protected and a judicial process would then occur.

The federal court could and would provide the applicant with an opportunity to introduce evidence, call witnesses and cross-examine in a public forum. This is a very important process in getting to the root of the allegation if the group is suspected of being involved in terrorist activity and fundraising.

This process would allow for the review and the classification in camera, and the judge would then provide the organization with a summary of the classified information produced. The summary would contain sufficient information to allow the organization to respond but would also exclude information that the judge has determined would be injurious to national security and the safety of persons. There is a fairly indepth and comprehensive process there to protect the rights of those involved. Confidentiality is often very critical in the integrity of the process, but to be very blunt, it is often a matter of life and death. These terrorist groups are very ruthless in their activities, and the repercussions and the revenge factor are certainly real.

If confirmed, the certificate would then be valid for three years and the judge's decision would be final and not available for or subject to appeal. However there is a provision for review if there is a change in the material circumstances of the organization.

All of this is to say that Bill C-16 provides a very good starting point. However some of this process is going to have to be worked through and more detail put in place.

Terrorists often look outside their borders. That is clear. Canada, because of the financial and material resources that exist here, is very much a target of terrorist organizations. Over the past number of years the approach to terrorism, I would strongly suggest, has been inadequate and has allowed, to a large extent, terrorist fundraising activities to thrive and to flourish in Canada. The regrettable result is that terrorist organizations have been able to exert their influence over and even infiltrate some very legitimate operating Canadian organizations that already have charitable status.

Recently we have seen concern raised over the charitable organization known as the Federation of Associations of Canadian Tamils, FACT, which has been identified by federal lawyers as a front for the known terrorist organization, the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam. Justice department lawyers have said that the Tamil Tigers engaged in torture, mistreatment of prisoners, summary executions, ethnic cleansing of Muslims and kidnapping and forcible conscription of children, all absolutely abhorrent activities. I am sure that some who may have contributed to this organization would be appalled to think that their money went to that organization for those purposes.

We have seen similar fundraising activities that play upon the emotions and the passions of Irish Canadians. For many years in this country we have seen Irish Republican Army activists who have tried to raise money for what turned out to be explosives or weaponry that was used to perpetrate their cause. That cause is thankfully now through due to the peace process and to negotiations in Northern Ireland and is moving in a very positive direction.

It needs to be stated that Canadian Tamils have made valuable contributions to the country. The fact that the particular organization is one of several political and benevolent front organizations that support a terrorist organization has resulted in a great deal of controversy in the House of Commons. It demonstrated the reach of such terrorist organizations into what seemed to be a well intentioned charitable group. It is also a reminder to Canadians of the care that must be taken and the background checks that must be made before any well intentioned person decides to aid in an effort of a charitable group.

Donations to a charity qualify for tax credits which reduce federal taxes by 17% for the first $200 of eligible donations and 29% of the balance to a limit of 75% of income. Such donations also reduce provincial taxes.

The legislation is positive in its direction. The difficulty is that police often have trouble making the connection between a charitable organization and the terrorist front that is being used for that purpose. Fundraising fronts usually take care to commit no crime in this country and police can currently only lay charges of conspiracy if a direct connection can be established.

There is much work to be done in this area. The United Nations General Assembly adopted the international convention for the suppression of the financing of terrorism, but Bill C-16 falls somewhat short of Canada's obligations under that convention. Other countries such as the United States and Great Britain make it completely illegal to provide material support or resources for any group that the government has found to be a terrorist organization.

Canada can learn from the example of other countries. We have an opportunity to improve the legislation and we hope that we would have the opportunity to do that in the justice committee. There may be some need to refer the bill to another committee, but wherever it goes we would be looking to improve it.

[Criminal Code, April 30th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to take part in the debate on Bill C-278. I know it has been before the House in previous incarnations and is one that all members take very seriously.

I listened very carefully to the comments of the hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice. He raises some very good points and very specific technical implications. There are always implications when one looks at a bill as comprehensive as the criminal code.

My overall reaction to his commentary is to ask what is stopping the government. It is a shame that private members bring forward good ideas and that the response of the government and the parliamentary secretary is to simply stand and tear the ideas apart limb from limb rather than embrace them and offer creative and constructive suggestions.

Much of the underlying theme of his commentary was to say that, yes, the government sees this as a problem that could be addressed. However the response is typically that they should study it more, do a survey and somehow engage more of the stakeholders to get their feedback.

That is consistent with the overriding concern of the Liberal Party to make sure it is okay in the polls. The Liberals want to make sure there is sufficient public support rather than take bold action on something that could have considerable impact on the lives of Canada's most vulnerable citizens.

I must begin by commending the hon. member for having the initiative to bring the matter forward, a matter he has been persistent in raising before. I believe it is because of his deep seated concern, having worked as a police officer, for children who are so vulnerable and who are often placed in a situation where someone in a position of trust preys on their vulnerability.

It goes without saying that it is sad that sexual predators are out there. They can be found in every province and every corner of the country. Infamous cases have occurred in places like Mount Cashel and in my home province of Nova Scotia in Shelburne at the school for boys. These were terrible instances where individuals were preyed upon by those whom they should have been able to rely on for protection. Sadly, the opposite occurred.

The life altering and life lasting implications and damage that result from a child being abused in this way is absolutely shocking and abhorrent to Canadians.

We have heard time and again of the horrible events that can occur in a child's life. What better place to address the issue than the Parliament of Canada? What higher calling, what higher cause could there be than to protect children from this fate?

Sexual predators, I submit very firmly, are not always interested in sex but in power, control and severe violence. That reinforces the worry parents have every time their children leave their homes. To properly deal with the situation we need a national sex offender registry, something other parties have called upon the government to enact.

Again, the government's response has been a half measure. It says it has something on CPIC that is similar but CPIC does not provide the early intervention or information that police and communities need to play a truly protective role.

The Liberal government, and the solicitor general in particular, must take responsibility to enact this type of legislation and bring forward a national sex offender registry. The Liberals say it is one of their top 10 priorities but time and again the issue seems to slip through our fingers when we have an opportunity to do something about it here on the floor of the House.

On the other hand, some provinces are taking the initiative. Ontario last Monday launched the first sex offender registry of its kind in Canada. Each sex offender in Ontario must register within 15 days of release from custody. The same applies to those serving sentences in the community. A file will contain the offender's address, phone number, physical description, aliases and list of offences. Such information is critical to police if they are to afford protection to those whose children could be preyed upon.

Anyone sentenced to less than 10 years must report their whereabouts for 10 years. Offenders sentenced to longer than 10 years will remain on the registry for life. This is the type of bold, proactive and, in some instances, harsh legislation we need.

The Ontario government cares about public safety and is reacting to the concerns of communities in the province. Its law was passed in honour of Christopher Stephenson and is often referred to as Christopher's Law. Thirteen years ago young Christopher was abducted at knifepoint from a Brampton mall, sexually assaulted and murdered by repeat sex offender Joseph Fredericks.

It is absolutely gut-wrenching that something like that must happen before politicians and legislators take notice. However, such examples illustrate how important it is to take initiatives that can prevent lifelong suffering, murder, exploitation and terrible instances of sexual assault and intrusion into young people's lives.

Sadly, with the current state of affairs, offenders registered in Ontario can leave the province to avoid tracking because of the lack of a nationwide sex offender registry. Currently we have only piecemeal laws to deal with sex offences.

Former government legislation, old Bill C-7, names pardoned sex offenders and requires them to remain on the RCMP database. Such information would only be released to certain parties under special circumstances and with the approval of the solicitor general. However that is not enough. There is not enough money currently in the CPIC system. There is not enough know-how or infrastructure to allow CPIC to fully address the issue.

The private member's bill before the House is an opportunity to bring forward legislative change that the member, and I think many members of the House, embrace and see as an improvement.

The bill would require changing the current age of consent under the criminal code from 16 to 14. The parliamentary secretary makes a good point in that some implications might be unwanted and unforeseen by the hon. member moving the motion. There is an anomaly with respect to those close in age engaging in consensual sexual activities.

I cannot speak for the hon. member but I suggest he would be enthusiastic and pleased if the parliamentary secretary or someone on the government side amended the legislation to make it more in keeping with his intent: to protect children from exploitation by those who would recruit them for prostitution, lure them on the Internet or in person, or in any instance prey upon them sexual purposes.

The hon. member for Calgary Northeast has brought forward legislation that the Progressive Conservative Party will be supporting. We have moved similar legislation in the past which tried to expand the envelope of protection for children. This bill quite clearly fits into that category.

The number of reported instances gives rise to the need for action on the part of all governments, be they federal, provincial or municipal. We must do more. We must be more pro-active and involved in ensuring children are protected. We must ensure that those who contravene current or future laws are dealt with in a serious and straightforward way. We must do everything in our power because that is currently not the case.

More could be done. The hon. member who moved the motion knows, having worked as a police officer, that the implications are so grave and life altering that public safety should be our sole motivation.

I am pleased the bill has been reinstated in parliament. I encourage all members of the House to support this and other such legislation. If we must amend it, as suggested by the parliamentary secretary, let us do so quickly. Let us make the necessary changes so that it fits cheek and jowl with the current legislation and there are no unwanted consequences. Let us ensure that there are consequences for those who break the law and prey upon children. Let us make this issue a firm commitment and legislative priority of the House.

[Resource Industries, April 24th, 2001]

Madam Chairman, I listened with great interest to my hon. colleague from South Shore, a fellow bluenoser. He touched briefly on the issue of natural gas development in the province of Nova Scotia, which has application in Newfoundland, to Hibernia and to other wells that are under exploration there.

He spoke of the case that is being made currently by our premier, John Hamm in the province of Nova Scotia, and his campaign for fairness where he talks about the equivalent opportunity his province is seeking to bring gas revenues into the province for reasons of stabilization, opportunity and infrastructure that my colleague referred to.

When the example is made and the case is laid out before the Canadian people, it is undeniable that this is very much a case of fairness.

There were different scales of economy between Nova Scotia and Alberta in the 1950s. There were different issues in terms of government regulation of that industry. However the case remains very compelling when one considers the potential revenues that would be lost by the province as it attempts to enter a very large and competitive global economy.

Nova Scotians are not feeling that they are optimizing or capitalizing on those benefits themselves. People in communities like Goldboro, White Head, Canso and Dover are feeling left out of the process of capitalization on their own natural resources.

I take the hon. secretary of state at his word that he has an understanding and a sympathy for that case. This is an opportunity to demonstrate action and to demonstrate that the Government of Canada is listening to the provinces and is ready to work with them to help them optimize the benefits to them.

Nova Scotians should not have to be dependent or feel a sense of loss. They should have a sense of entitlement and a sense of participation in the Canadian economy, the same way Albertans did 40 years ago. That is all Nova Scotians are looking for.

Nova Scotians are looking for demonstrable evidence of that. They are looking for an opportunity to receive more of their royalties, more actual accrued benefit from their own natural resources. That is all we are asking. In the bigger picture they can be greater contributors to the economy and greater beneficiaries of their own natural resources, which benefits all Canadians.

All rhetoric aside, it is the people of those small rural communities in Guysborough county who are looking for some tangible proof that the government is listening. The people of Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and other provinces are looking for evidence that they can be full participants in Confederation and full participants in the economy.

[Supply, April 24th, 2001]

Madam Speaker, my question is for the member. I want to congratulate him for his decision to initiate this debate.

It is a very important debate. Unfortunately we did not have an opportunity to do this in advance of the meeting in Quebec City. However, when one looks historically at these types of agreements in the past and at the original debates, one sees that we did have an opportunity not only to debate it in the House but to actually have an election on the issue, it was of such great importance.

Is it not fair to say that the position of the Bloc is one of concern that is consistent with other Canadians, that we want to know in advance, in a transparent way, the position the government is taking on a whole array of issues: environmental issues, trade issues and civil rights issues? We want to know prior to the government signing these agreements.

It is ironic to note that if this were held in Quebec City in 1988 the government would have been on the other side of the fence. Would the member agree with that comment?

[Criminal Code, April 23rd, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, the member raises a very important element which is missing from the legislation itself. I agree that the police should be outsourcing to individuals who have expertise in this area. It is an incredibly overwhelming issue in terms of its complexity and the lengths that organized crime will go to infiltrate legitimate businesses.

Organized crime will seek to undermine the credible people working in the system, whether working directly in justice or as legislators, and to undermine the media who have a role in reporting and making public the activities of organized crime.

I agree that police officers should have within their mandate the ability to engage these individuals for information purposes and for their expertise. The legislation does not provide for the protection of specifically journalists, authors and those who write and have obtained special information that is helpful and relevant to the police.

I am encouraged that the issue is being fleshed out and that we will have an opportunity to correct it to make that additional protection available. Hopefully the spirit of productive debate and study at the committee level will improve this important legislation which he and other members support.

[Criminal Code, April 23rd, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in this debate and to follow the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona, a new member of our justice committee who brings a great deal of credibility to the debate and great oratorical skill to the House of Commons.

Our party, as are I think all parties without exception, will be supporting Bill C-24. It is somewhat of a reincarnation of legislation we saw in the last parliament. It is very important and timely to the process of dealing with the ongoing plague of organized crime in Canada. It will allow police officers and prosecutors, both through legislation and in some instances through increased resources, to combat and turn their undivided attention in some instances to the growing problem of organized crime.

Neil Young sings of rust never sleeping. Well, crime never sleeps. Crime is unfortunately becoming more and more active in many communities and I am not talking only of the big cities. Crime is becoming prevalent in small towns and rural parts of the country.

We are particularly vulnerable in coastal communities, I hasten to add. Sadly, since the disbandment of the ports police in the country that is even more the case. We are seeing an obvious attempt by organized crime to profit from illicit acts of importation, in many instances of contraband materials. I am talking about drugs, which are the chief trade, as well as guns, pornographic and contraband materials brought into the country under the radar of our current law enforcement capacity. One would hope with the greatest optimism that this legislation will help address, at least in part, this very complex problem.

There is a great need for this legislation. The RCMP, who arguably is the most affected by the issue, is I think cautiously optimistic. The new RCMP Commissioner Zaccardelli alluded to the fact that organized crime has plans to use bribes to destabilize the country's parliamentary system. That came as a shocking revelation to many when they read it in the newspapers. It raised eyebrows across the country. It demonstrated the profound epidemic of organized crime and the lengths that organized crime will go to on occasion to exert influence, and I am obviously not talking about a positive influence.

That epidemic has for many years been virtually ignored by the current government. It is therefore very encouraging to see it finally recognize the issue and give it a priority after seven years.

On Tuesday, September 12, 2000, the Quebec public security minister, Serge Ménard, urged the federal government to use the notwithstanding clause to outlaw membership in gangs such as the Hells Angels and the Rock Machine. Because such a move might be struck down by the courts as unconstitutional, he was urging the government to give at least an indication that it would not hesitate to use the notwithstanding clause.

When it comes to organized crime, one thing everyone understands is that it does not play by the rules. It does not abide by the laws, whereas of course law enforcement, prosecutorial services and the government not only have to put laws in place but stay within the boundaries and confines of those laws, and rightly so. Therefore we are sometimes talking about a distinct disadvantage on the part of our system of enforcement vis-à-vis outlaw gangs. Extraordinary times sometimes call for extraordinary action. That is why, I am sure, the suggestion was made that the notwithstanding clause might be invoked in those circumstances.

The Department of Justice clearly suffers from constitutional constipation at times, I think, from this fear that somehow if a law is made that might be deemed unconstitutional we should refrain from enacting it.

This law will be challenged in our courts, as many laws before it have been challenged. That is part and parcel of the process. In particular, I can guarantee that the legislation that expands police powers will be the subject of numerous court challenges. We can bank on it.

We simply cannot hesitate in or refrain from introducing legislation in the fear that somewhere in the land, whether it be in the Supreme Court of Canada or in some other court, a judge may decide that this is not within the bounds of the constitution. That is part of our judiciary. That is part of the process. I guarantee that this legislation will be challenged, like other legislation has been.

However, when dealing with organized crime and the repercussions of having organized crime go unchecked we sometimes have to make laws that expand the current envelope and go beyond the realm of what has been the normal practice.

While the Quebec minister was expressing these concerns, on the very next day, September 13, the day after the call from the security minister of Quebec, Mr. Michel Auger, a journalist in Montreal with the Journal de Montréal , was shot five times in the back. This was most likely the action of and has been attributed widely to outlaw motorcycle gangs. I am informed that it was likely the act of someone who wanted to join one of the gangs and was part of the movement to get in, to show somehow that this person had what it takes to be involved in this type of activity. They are sometimes the most dangerous, these puppet groups, these individuals who are trying to ingratiate themselves, to earn their patch so to speak. Mr. Auger's fate and the fate of many others who have expressed opposition to organized crime and have raised the spectacle of somehow trying to get this issue under control has been that they have sometimes faced the wrath of the gangs themselves.

Criminal gangs are far-reaching now. They are branching out. As I said in my opening remarks, they are found in communities across the country, whether they be rural or urban. Many Canadians are starting to feel particularly unsafe because of this audacious presence. In the city of Halifax, there are many people who are very concerned. Individuals such as Matt Jardine and others who live in Halifax are concerned about what is happening in their city.

An outlaw motorcycle gang, the Hells Angels, now has its colours flying in radiant lights in front of its clubhouse in the city of Halifax. This is the affront to democracy. It is an affront to policing and the safe, secure feeling that people should have in their communities.

There is a real need for this legislation. Again, it is encouraging that it is being brought forward now. The minister often uses the phrase in a timely fashion, and this has been timely for many years. The time is here and we are encouraged by that.

Organized crime also is becoming very prevalent in many circles where it was traditionally unseen, such as the Internet. The Hells Angels, I am told, have one of the largest Internet sites available. It is information that is now transmitted through cyberspace, not only across this country but across the United States, North America and the world. That is very disturbing. Obviously the ability to transport information can be an extremely positive thing, but organized crime can use it for a very nefarious purpose, so there is certainly a need for legislation in that area at some future time. It is not addressed by this legislation.

The bill has taken on a very broad background, if we will, in terms of what types of organized crime we are dealing with. Eastern bloc European gangs have emerged, such as the traditional Mafiosa-Italian connections, and there are the snakehead organizations, Chinese triads, Oriental groups that are forming gangs and the traditional so-called motorcycle gangs, which are, as I have said, becoming more prevalent.

The Minister of Justice gave repeated assurances to study options for strengthening our current legislation to break the back of organized crime. Although some of those details were not discussed publicly, we do know that attempts were made to introduce legislation in 1997. We see it coming back now in this form. The minister reiterated this in her comments.

I do applaud her. I applaud the minister's initiative in bringing forward this legislation now. It has finally received priority and would allow those administering it, mainly the provinces and the law enforcement community, to attack the issue and to attack the underbelly of these gangs. In particular, this legislation allows for greater use of attacking the proceeds of crime, that is, going after the actual resources of organized crime and taking away the flow of money and the benefits received from illegal acts.

It also very clearly and specifically simplifies the definition and the composition of criminal organizations for purposes in a court. The bill targets various degrees of involvement within organizations, that is, it attaches the type of activity that is deemed to be participation in a criminal organization. Sometimes that is just watching. Sometimes it could be the person working on a dock in Halifax who turns a blind eye to an importation or to a boxcar coming in with illicit contraband material.

The legislation also would make it easier for police and prosecutors to arrest and jail those involved in organized crime and keep them in prison for longer periods of time. There is a greater element of deterrence, both specific and general, at work in the bill for those who choose this path.

The bill would allow law enforcement officials to declare forfeit the proceeds of crime from organizations, to seize the property and to perhaps put that resource back into the community that has been harmed. It allows law enforcement officers to seize things like houses, boats, cars and money and to allow the resource that has been pillaged and raped from a community to go back into it and perhaps benefit it and try to rehabilitate some of the harm that has been done.

The legislation would also strengthen rules protecting against intimidation of witnesses, jurors and their families at organized crime trials. It would strengthen the protection for federal ministers and members of parliament. It would improve protection for law enforcement officers from criminal liability when they commit certain illicit acts while engaging in undercover operations.

One thing missing from the legislation and which has been pointed out by several members today is that it does not include provincial ministers. I believe that was perhaps a legislative oversight. I am certain it is something that can be corrected at committee.

In particular, the provisions in this bill send a very important signal that the Parliament of Canada is not going to sit back and rest on the laurels of the fine men and women who are currently working in our justice system, but that it is actually going to bolster support for them and enhance their ability to do their job and their ability to protect us, because it is that thin blue line, as it is sometimes called, that the police provide to the citizens of Canada.

We are supportive of the amendments that deal with taking away the proceeds of the crime, taking away the lifeblood. There are very positive amendments to this bill that could be tightened up. Again, hopefully we will have an opportunity to do that in the process.

Of course I mentioned the absence of protection for provincial ministers. There is also perhaps some need to protect journalists in some instances, as we saw with Mr. Auger.

There is a problem with respect to the funding for the legislation. That in and of itself is perhaps its greatest weakness. The legislation has come about, typically, with great fanfare and with announcements made in the press gallery. I think the minister has had her knuckles rapped a little in that regard. The legislation announces $200 million to address this specific problem. That comes as great news to those in law enforcement and was met with great enthusiasm by the commissioner of the RCMP and others.

However, the question, the next natural progression of that, is this: when will the money come? There were references in that very press conference to the earlier announcement of $584 million to the RCMP to upgrade CPIC, to allow for greater resources, to allow for more overtime, to allow for resources and for perhaps greater access to justices of the peace or greater access to informants. They are all important elements of the police task in protecting Canadians.

When will the money arrive? It would be very interesting to hear from the minister or members of the government how much of that $580 million, the earlier announcement, has actually been put into the coffers of the police. I suspect that the same question will be asked of this $200 million in very short order, because they are crying out for those resources. The police are desperately in need of the financial support. It is fine to make the announcement, to give the moral support here, but they need the actual resources and they need them immediately. That is a question that has yet to be answered.

There is a positive starting point here. There is certainly a determined commitment on the part of the government and on the part of all members of parliament. This has affected individual members of parliament. A member of the Bloc found himself in a very unsettling position, I am sure, when he was the subject of threatening actions on the part of an outlaw motorcycle gang.

The limitless resources of the organized criminal element highlight the fact that the police are often left feeling that they are not on a level playing field legislatively because of their limitations within the law. However, they are also under the increased pressure because organized crime has unlimited resources and is essentially using more and better technology than is available to the police. Members of organized crime are watching the watchers. They are using videotape to tape the police to find out who is watching them. They are transmitting information about judges, about prosecutors and about police. They are sharing information about undercover officers. They are using the Internet to its maximum benefit.

This is the brave new era. This is an age wherein we should be giving the police the tools and the technology to fight organized crime on the same level that organized crime is using. Typically we have seen the government try to fix a problem that in some instances it created. I refer to the ports police. There have also been severe cuts to the RCMP in the past number of years. Clearly the RCMP was suffering budgetary restraints when it had to close its training facility in Saskatoon. Clearly when the Canadian Police Information Centre computer system was almost on the verge of collapse without an immediate influx of money, it was symptomatic of underfunding on the part of our national police force. Bill C-24 would not provide this immediate injection of funding.

There are, as I indicated, elements and commitments that we are very supportive of. What we want to see and what we want to diligently pursue is that the funding is actually going to be there. There are clauses in the bill like, for example, clause 27 at page 29, which talks about the definition of criminal organization. It now needs to be composed of three or more persons and the crown now does not need to show that the offences were committed in the previous five years.

Some of the legislation may seem technical and inconsequential to the untrained ear, but this is very important for the crown and for the police working in cohort to secure convictions. We saw a very recent sting operation in the province of Quebec and parts of Ontario that resulted in individuals being rounded up and charged. There are potentially charges there that will not be affected by the introduction of this legislation, but in the future certainly it will help in the successful prosecution of these types of offences.

One problem that I have picked up on is that Bill C-24 fails to make it a criminal offence to be a member of a group already proven to be a criminal organization. Whether or not an organization is criminal would have to be proven in each particular case, that is, it would create needless expense in some instances and a duplication of resources that would prolong many criminal trials.

There is a general consensus that the legislation is positive. Much of the technical examination of the issue came about as a result of the Shirose and Campbell case that dealt with immunity. It dealt with police officers having the ability to infiltrate crime through in some instances buying illicit substances like drugs and participating in questionable conduct themselves to prove allegiance and to prove that they were working with the gang to gain its trust so that they could break it up.

This is something that raises concern among lawyers and privacy protectors. There will be an examination by a court of law to see that it is in proportion, that it is reasonable in the circumstances. These are the types of matters that we could try to fine tune.

It will no doubt result in court challenges and that should be welcomed. Members should embrace that reality. It is our responsibility to make laws and it is the responsibility of the courts to examine and interpret those laws in some cases.

With regard to the intimidation factor, it is very important that there be as broad a definition as possible for who should be protected from intimidation. Trials cannot function if jurists, lawyers, witnesses, and in some instances police, are feeling intimidated. Intimidation and extortion are things that gangs deal in very much. They put fear into the minds of people if they come forward to testify against gang members.

I am hopeful the minister and the government will be open to certain amendments, further examination and strengthening of the legislation. I trust all members would be supporting the bill.

[Agriculture, April 23rd, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food. Could he tell the House whether he wants Canadians to accept that he was some kind of a security risk to the Quebec summit. Is he not embarrassed to stand here and tell us that somehow he could not get into a conference that was sponsored by his own government?

After his successful telephone conference with the secretary of agriculture, Ms. Veneman, could he now tell Prince Edward Island potato producers that they can plant this spring so they will not face financial ruin? Could he get his facts right this time?

[The Prime Minister, April 23rd, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, newspaper reports allege that Shawinigan hotel owner Yvon Duhaime owed $23,000 to the Prime Minister in 1997. Could the Prime Minister confirm to the House that Yvon Duhaime owed him money, whether there was any other outstanding debt or whether there was any form of debt owed from the sale of the Auberge Grand-Mère hotel or any other dealings? Was there any debt?

[Points Of Order, April 6th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order arising out of today's question period.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food stated that the minister never told Island potato growers to stop growing potatoes. Il est dans les patates.

I would like to quote from the minister's proceedings at the standing committee—

[Agriculture, April 6th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, if there is a blight for P.E.I. potato farmers, it is the attitude of the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food and his callous comments to P.E.I. farmers that they should consider getting out of the potato industry. He should be protecting, not provoking island farmers. One Liberal backbencher from Malpeque has denounced the minister. The rest are stony silent.

Today the P.E.I. legislature is debating a unanimous resolution calling on the federal government to close Canadian borders to potatoes from the United States.

Will the minister of agriculture retract his insults, travel to Prince Edward Island and personally meet with potato farmers? Will he support the island initiative to ban U.S. potatoes? They have to start planting—