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Crucial Fact

  • His favourite word was federal.

Last in Parliament May 2004, as Canadian Alliance MP for Calgary Southwest (Alberta)

Won his last election, in 2000, with 65% of the vote.

Statements in the House

Kyoto December 9th, 1997

Mr. Speaker, the prime minister did not answer my question. He does not want to talk about the costs of the emission levels he is committing to in Kyoto because he is afraid of the public reaction to those costs. We know that reducing emission levels to the Liberal level could reduce Canada's economic growth rates by 2% to 3%.

So instead of these evasive answers, I ask the prime minister again will he present this House with the economic studies which his government must have done before setting those Kyoto targets?

Kyoto December 9th, 1997

Mr. Speaker, the Kyoto conference wraps up tomorrow and delegates will be finalizing details on an accord that can dramatically affect Canadians for years. The prime minister said he would sign this deal and be legally bound by it.

I have a very specific question to the prime minister about the costs of complying with the Kyoto deal. Did the federal government commission studies estimating the impact of this deal on jobs, taxes and economic growth and, if so, will the prime minister make those studies public?

Social Programs December 8th, 1997

Mr. Speaker, the cut in transfers was over $7.5 billion.

There is one answer to this federal-provincial relations problem in social programs and that is rebalancing the federal and provincial powers. This is a unifying concept that has support in Quebec, more support than the symbolic recognition of distinct society and uniqueness.

The rebalancing of powers is something that both helps social programs and unites the country.

Why does the federal government not simply accept rebalancing as a concept and put it on the agenda at this meeting with the premiers?

Social Programs December 8th, 1997

Mr. Speaker, but partnership used to mean 50:50. When medicare started out the federal government agreed to pay 50% of the approved costs. This year the federal government is down to paying 10% of the cash required to run hospitals.

The premiers want to talk about one of the key areas in this Calgary declaration, the seventh point, about genuinely respecting provincial jurisdiction.

Why does the federal government insist on running social programs while slashing and cutting their funding? Is this really the way to improve federal-provincial relations?

Social Programs December 8th, 1997

Mr. Speaker, this week the prime minister will be meeting with the premiers to talk about social programs.

When these social programs like medicare were introduced years ago Ottawa paid a large portion of the bills, and that was how Ottawa was able to spend its way into areas of responsibility that belonged to the provinces like health care and education. Today Ottawa still wants to control the programs but it has cut the transfers to pay for them.

Why does the federal government think that the premiers will allow it to micro manage social programs after having gutted the transfers to the provinces?

Amendment To The Constitution Of Canada (Newfoundland) December 8th, 1997

I appreciate the applause. It is not the place of this parliament to say what educational reforms should be pursued by any province. That is in the realm of provincial jurisdiction. However I can say, as I believe many other members on both sides of the House would say, that had that proviso and that assurance been in the package of educational reforms presented by the Government of Newfoundland, support for this amendment would have been greater and more clear cut.

With that proviso and assurance the government would have been on much stronger ground to argue that while rights previously granted would be affected by the reforms, they would not be prejudicially affected.

The Government of Newfoundland now has a special obligation to make the more limited rights provided in this amendment meaningful to those to whom they are most important, in particular the right to have religious courses in non-denominational schools and the right to religious observances.

Since courses about religion are no a substitute for the embrace and practice of religion, much rests on the meaningfulness of the third right contained in this amendment, namely that religious observances shall be permitted in the school where requested by parents.

We have been assured by representatives of the Government of Newfoundland and by the federal Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs that this provision is sufficiently strong to prevent requests by parents for religious observances in Newfoundland schools from being overruled by the charter of rights and freedoms.

If this proves not to be the case, members of the House will have grounds for declaring that we have been misled. More important, a significant portion of the Newfoundland population will have grounds for arguing that they have been misled and will have grounds for expressing their disapproval in no uncertain terms at the ballot box in future federal and provincial elections.

I look forward to the representations of other members on this important issue.

Amendment To The Constitution Of Canada (Newfoundland) December 8th, 1997

Term 17—1995

  1. In lieu of section ninety-three of the Constitution Act, 1867, the following shall apply in respect of the Province of Newfoundland:

In and for the Province of Newfoundland, the Legislature shall have exclusive authority to make laws in relation to education but

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c), schools established, maintained, and operated with public funds shall be denominational schools, and any class having rights under this Term as it read on January 1, 1995 shall continue to have the right to provide for religious education, activities, and observances for the children of that class in those schools, and the group of classes that formed one integrated school system by agreement in 1969 may exercise the same rights under this Term as as a single class of persons;

(b) Subject to provincial legislation that is uniformly applicable to all schools specifying conditions for the establishment or continued operation of schools,

(i) Any class of persons referred to in paragraph (A) shall have the right to have a publicly funded denominational school established, maintained, and operated especially for that class, and

(ii) The Legislature may approve the establishment, maintenance, and operation of a publicly funded school, whether denominational or non-denominational;

(c) Where a school is established, maintained, and operated pursuant to subparagraph (b)(i), the class of persons referred to in that subparagraph shall continue to have the right to provide for religious education, activities, and observances and to direct the teaching of aspects of the curriculum affecting religious beliefs, student admission policy, and the assignment and dismissal of teachers in that school;

(d) All schools referred to in paragraphs (a) and (b) shall receive their share of public funds in accordance with scales determined on a non-discriminatory basis from time to time by the Legislature; and

(e) If the classes of persons having rights under this term so desire, they shall have the right to elect not less than two thirds of the class members of a school board, and any class so desiring shall have the right to elect the portion of that total that is proportionate to the population of the class in the area under the board's jurisdiction.

The Newfoundland House of Assembly then passed a new schools act and a new education act which allowed the province to reduce the number of school districts to 10 and to appoint interdenominational school boards.

Twenty-seven denominational school boards were then dissolved and 10 new interdenominational school boards assumed full responsibility for the administration of the system. Sixty schools province wide were identified for closure at the end of the 1996-97 school year.

But in May 1997, and members will be familiar with this, the Pentecostal Assemblies and representatives of the Roman Catholic church initiated legal action to challenge the Newfoundland legislation and to seek an injunction to stop boards from implementing school designations and from closing certain schools.

In their legal action, the plaintiffs did not challenge the constitutionality of the amended term 17. Rather, they challenged the way it had been put into practice under the Newfoundland legislation.

The court subsequently granted the injunction on the grounds that denominational rights could only be made subordinate to rules set out in law or regulation which were uniform and which were not so restrictive as to make exercise of the right virtually impossible.

The judge found that there was a case to be argued that the Minister of Education's guidelines gave so much discretion to the school boards that the rules were not being applied uniformly and that the directives regarding the amount the province would pay for such costs as busing were in practice so constraining on the right that they amounted to denying the denominations their rights under the revised term.

The granting of this injunction brought the reform process to a halt and disrupted the plans for the 1997-98 school year and it provoked a political reaction rather than a legislative response from the Government of Newfoundland.

On July 1, 1997, Premier Tobin announced that another referendum would be held on September 2 to further revise term 17. It was now proposed to extinguish denominational rights granted by the term 17 amendment of 1995 and to replace them with the amendment we have before us. That amendment, of course, reads:

17.(1) In lieu of section ninety-three of the Constitution Act, 1867, this section shall apply in respect of the Province of Newfoundland.

(2) In and for the Province of Newfoundland, the Legislature shall have exclusive authority to make laws in relation to education, but shall provide for courses in religion that are not specific to a religious denomination.

(3) Religious observances shall be permitted in a school where requested by parents.

On September 2, Newfoundlanders voted in the second referendum on the question: “Do you support a single school system where all children, regardless of their religious affiliation, attend the same schools where opportunities for religious education and observances are provided?”

On September 3, the Chief Electoral Officer announced the results, that 73% of those who voted in the referendum had voted yes to the question and 27% voted no.

In October of this year, on a motion by the Minister of Inter-Governmental Affairs, this House established a Special Joint Committee of the Senate and House to consider the amendment which is before us. That committee has prepared its report recommending support of the resolution.

Reform members of the committee filed a minority report raising particular concerns with respect to the treatment of majority and minority rights under the proposed amendment, but making no specific recommendation other than that members voting freely on this resolution take their concerns into account.

And so it is by this long, torturous route we come to today's debate and a decision by Parliament on an issue with which Newfoundlanders have been wrestling now for many many years.

Members of the House will know that the official opposition believes that constitutional amendments should be subjected to three great tests; the test of democratic consent, the test of the rule of law, and the test of the Canadian national interest.

We contend that these tests are broad enough and deep enough to handle any constitutional change, including those of the most radical variety. In other words these are the great principles that would guide a Reform government in dealing with any constitutional change or challenge from educational reform amendments to a secession attempt.

We are especially pleased to see that the government has also adopted these three tests as a standard with the intergovernmental affairs minister beginning his testimony before the joint committee on November 18 with these words: “Specifically, I will explain how the amendment conforms to the legal requirements of the Constitution, has merit and is in the interest of Newfoundland and Canadians, and enjoys substantial democratic support, including a reasonable degree of support among minorities”.

We should strive in our application of these three tests to be consistent. These therefore are exactly the same tests which we applied to the Quebec schools amendment, although when applied to different facts and a different situation the application of these tests may lead to different conclusions. Allow me then to briefly discuss the application of these tests to the Newfoundland schools amendment.

First, the test of democratic consent. Do a majority of the citizens affected by the proposed constitutional amendment approve of the amendment? On major amendments we believe that this test should be conducted through a referendum. In the case of the term 17 amendment before us, I am persuaded that the amendment passes this democratic test. The principle behind it was approved by 73% of those voting in a provincial referendum.

I know there are members who have questions about the manner in which the Newfoundland referendum was conducted, the appropriateness of the question asked, the time period and the resources available to proponents on each side of the issue. These are legitimate questions. But it seems to me that after years and years of debate on this subject the people of Newfoundland knew what they were voting on when they approved the 1995 term 17 proposal by a majority of 54% and that even more knew what they were voting on in the second referendum which was approved by a majority of 73%.

I am also persuaded that Newfoundlanders are aware that this issue involves not only educational reforms but the difficult subject of extinguishing, granting and balancing majority and minority rights. I therefore believe that this Parliament should be very careful in presuming that its judgment on any of these matters is somehow superior to that of the people of Newfoundland.

Second, we want to satisfy ourselves that the proposed constitutional amendment and the amendment formula utilized conform to the rule of law. It is apparent that term 17 applies only to Newfoundland and therefore from a strictly legal standpoint can be amended under the bilateral formula contained in section 43. In fact it has already been amended twice under that formula.

As a general principle I would prefer that provincial governments submitting legally controversial amendments obtain a court reference first, affirming the constitutionality of what is proposed so that we do not run the risk of going through this entire process only to have the results upset on constitutional grounds.

I do acknowledge that our confidence in the legal opinions provided to us by Premier Tobin in 1996 was shaken when the injunction was granted by the Newfoundland Supreme Court to halt the implementation of the reforms proposed under the Newfoundland legislation. It is my understanding however that what led to the court challenge was not the constitutionality or the legality of the amendment but the way in which it was implemented under the Newfoundland legislation. I am therefore prepared to acknowledge that the amendment before us conforms to the rule of law.

That brings us then to the test of the Canadian national interest. Majorities have an interest in minority rights. Each of us may be a part of some majority in a particular situation but each of us may also find ourselves if not at present then in the future in a minority position. We may be part of an ethnic majority but part of a religious minority. All of us therefore have an interest in the protection of minority rights whether or not we are a member of the particular minority in question.

With respect to education, the Constitution of Canada makes it very clear that education is under provincial jurisdiction. But the spirit and intent of section 93, much of which was imported into the original term 17, is that governments assume political responsibility for ensuring that powers are not exercised in a way that prejudicially affects rights previously granted.

We are also aware that the actions of one province affecting majority and minority rights in education may set important precedents regarding educational rights of minorities and majorities in other provinces. We are not speaking here simply of legal precedents but also of political precedents which are very important.

It is with respect to the impact of the proposed Newfoundland schools amendment on rights previously granted that I have concerns. It is in fact in this area that our caucus has had its greatest concerns. It is this aspect of the amendment which has been the principal focus of our internal discussions.

So interested and concerned have we been on this matter that not only have we endeavoured to absorb the testimony and the findings of the special joint committee and the representations to the ministers to that committee, but we also sponsored a special debate of our own on this issue. The question debated was: Does the Newfoundland schools amendment prejudicially affect rights previously granted to persons desiring a religious orientation in the education of their children?

To argue the yes side, we invited Joseph Hutchings, a partner in the firm of Poole, Althouse and Associates of Cornerbrook who handled the supreme court challenge of the Newfoundland Schools Act resulting from the 1995 term 17 amendment. On the no side we invited Clyde Wells of the law firm of O'Reilly, Noseworthy in St. John's. Mr. Wells of course is the former premier of Newfoundland and the premier to first consult the people of Newfoundland on educational reform through a referendum.

It is not my intention to reproduce here the pros and cons of the arguments raised by these two gentlemen, but I do want to thank them both for contributing to our understanding of this issue and to express my disappointment that other members of the House who were invited to this debate did not take full advantage of it.

I now come to the nub of the argument with respect to whether the Newfoundland schools amendment passes the test of the Canadian national interest, particularly with regard to its impact on rights previously granted to classes of persons.

On the one hand, the original term 17 in 1949 specifically entrenched denominational rights by specifying that the legislature will not have authority to make laws prejudicially affecting any right or privilege with respect to denominational schools, common amalgamated schools or denominational colleges, that any classes of persons have by law in Newfoundland at the date of the union.

Term 17 as amended in 1995 also in clause (a) upheld denominational rights by stating that:

Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c), schools established, maintained and operated with public funds shall be denominational schools, and any class having rights under this term as it read on January 1, 1995 shall continue to have the right to provide for religious education, activities, and observances for the children of that class in those schools.

If we then look at the term 17 currently before us, we find that these denominational rights are extinguished and they are in effect replaced by three things: one, the exclusive authority of the province of Newfoundland to make laws in relation to education, which presumably is intended to give expression to the public desire in Newfoundland to exercise a right to have public schools; two, the right to provide for courses in religion that are not specific to a religious denomination; and three, the right to religious observances in a school where requested by parents.

Presumably if the people of Newfoundland voted so strongly in favour of replacing denominational schools with a single public school system, a significant majority must prefer the right to a public education system over the right to maintain a denominational school system.

There is little question in my mind that the two other rights established by this amendment are of questionable value, especially to parents desiring a religious orientation in the education of their children.

The provisions for courses in religion that are not specific to a religious denomination and the right to religious observances in a school where requested by parents are hardly adequate substitutes for the right “to provide for religious education, activities and observances for children in denominational schools” as guaranteed by the 1995 term 17 amendment.

As the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada pointed out in a brief dated November 18, 1997 and prepared for the special joint committee:

The provision of religious education classes and religious observance is insufficient to accommodate the faith based approach to education. This was recognized by the Supreme Court of Canada in Tiny Separate School Trustees v. The King in which it was stated:

The idea that the denominational school is to be differentiated from the common school purely by the character of its religious exercises or religious studies is erroneous. Common and separate schools are based on fundamentally different conceptions of education. Undenominational schools are based on the idea that the separation of secular from religious education is advantageous. Supporters of denominational schools, on the other hand, maintain that religious instruction and influence should always accompany secular training.

With respect to the right to religious observances in a school where requested by parents, there is a justifiable fear expressed by some that this provision will be simply overridden by the charter.

To counter balance this apparent weakening of rights to religious based education are the following assurances given by the Government of Newfoundland and in part by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

The minister assures us that parental rights are strengthened by this amendment. In his presentation on December 1 to the committee, he said in fact that parents have more power under the proposed amendment than they ever did before. Parental rights, it was argued, are strengthened: “They have the power to elect school boards, to enrol their children in the school of their choice, the the power to withdraw them from classes where there is instruction that they do not wish for their children. They have the right to request religious observances in school and the right not to have their children forced to attend those observances”.

He also assured us that part 3 of this amendment is immune to charter challenge. I believe he repeated that again today. In his December 1 presentation to the joint committee, he said: “If enacted, term 17 will become part of the Constitution of Canada. Thus it will be shielded by the well-established principle that one part of the Constitution”—that is the charter—“cannot be used to invalidate or repeal another. As a result, the provisions in subsections (2) and (3) will enjoy a measure of charter immunity”.

He then went on to give the supreme court references with particular reference to the 1987 reference case on the amendment to the Ontario Education Act which supports this conclusion: “With respect to section 93, the court said that this legislative power in the province is not subject to regulation by other parts of the Constitution in any way which would be tantamount to its repeal”.

Clearly, the value of the rights granted under this new term 17 therefore is very much dependent on the weight that Newfoundlanders attach to these assurances given by the minister in this Parliament and by the Government of Newfoundland in that province.

The value of these rights is very much dependent on the way in which the Government of Newfoundland fulfils its educational reform obligations. The value of these rights is also very much dependent upon the extent to which parents exercise them and the manner in which the denominations endeavour to exercise their influence under the new regime.

I believe that many Newfoundlanders are aware of these considerations, that they have debated them longer and more deeply than we in this House and took them into account in voting on the referendum.

My personal concern about the impact of this amendment on rights is substantial but not substantial enough to outweigh my desire to respect the wishes of the people of Newfoundland as expressed in their referendum. I will therefore with these reservations vote in favour of the Newfoundland schools amendment. In saying this, I fully appreciate there will be a free vote and that colleagues in this House, including members of my own caucus, will attach a different weighting to these principles and conclusions with respect to democratic consent, the rule of law and particularly the effect on rights, and that the weighting they attach to these factors may well lead them to vote against the amendment rather than in favour.

In conclusion, there are three other observations I would like to make concerning this amendment, its effects on denominational rights and the obligations of the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and the Government of Newfoundland.

First of all, I want to make clear that the Newfoundland schools amendment is fundamentally different from the Quebec schools amendment and the application of our three tests leads to a different conclusion in each case.

As much as I am sympathetic to the desire of Quebeckers to reform their education system, I voted against that amendment because it was not ratified by the people it affects through a referendum and because it replaced constitutional guarantees of rights previously granted with inferior guarantees contained in provincial statutes that can easily be changed.

In the case of the Newfoundland schools amendment, the amendment was ratified by a popular referendum, and while certain rights are being extinguished and other rights are being granted, the new rights granted are constitutionally guaranteed.

I want to say a word to parents in Newfoundland whose principal interest in this whole issue is securing a religious orientation in the education of their children and who are likely to be gravely disappointed if parliament approves the motion before us. Many members of the House identify with their concerns and aspirations for their children, and I am certainly one among them.

My wife Sandra and I have five children, now aged 17 years to 29 years. Our children have attended over 20 different schools in three different cities in Alberta, including protestant and catholic public schools, protestant and catholic separate schools, and a private denominational school.

As practising Christians we have preferred to have our children educated in schools with a spiritual orientation where faith is valued, even if we have sometimes opted out of the specific religious instruction in a school. We have preferred schools offering a faith oriented education to those schools where the entire orientation is secular and either indifferent or hostile to faith.

Having said that, I believe there are some hard lessons to be learned from the denominational schools experience in Newfoundland over the past number of years, which should guide in dealing with the new regime and which are applicable to the rest of us living in other jurisdictions where similar challenges will be faced in the years ahead.

The first lesson is that if and when denominational groups have partial or full control of an educational system, it is extremely important that we fully champion freedom of conscience and religious expression for all members of the community and not just for those in a particular denomination. It is not necessary to agree with another person's religious convictions in order to uphold their right to hold and exercise those convictions.

The foundation of denominational educational rights, I maintain, is freedom of conscience and religion; but if we only champion the expression of that freedom for ourselves and our denomination and not for all, the public will see our interest in denominational education as a narrow sectarian interest and will be unsupportive.

Moreover, when denominational groups are partially or wholly in charge of an educational system, it would seem imperative that we champion, expand and cultivate the rights of parents and the accountability of those systems to parents. Denominational systems that are run from the top down, with parents playing only a peripheral advisory role and the real power resting in the hands of denominational leaders, do not have good prospects for surviving in the long run any more than top down political regimes have a long term hope of surviving in the political arena.

If the denominational groups in Newfoundland had been seen as champions of freedom of conscience for all Newfoundlanders and champions of parental rights, the removal of denominational rights would have been seen as an interference with fundamental rights, and there would have been much less public support for that option.

The second lesson we can learn and that denominational interests in other provinces can learn from the Newfoundland experience is that by trying to keep too much we can lose much of what we had. Obviously the term 17 provided for in the 1995 constitutional amendment, which preserved denominational rights but endeavoured to integrate them with other provincial concerns, would have been preferable for parents desiring a religious orientation in the education of their children to what would be provided under the current term 17.

However it was denominational interests themselves that challenged the implementation of the preferable term 17. This challenge, while temporarily successful in the courts, in the legal arena, provoked a political reaction in the form of the second referendum. This challenge was obviously perceived negatively by the public that voted more strongly in the second referendum in favour of the government's plan and against any recognition of denominational rights.

It is an ironic reminder of the truth of the New Testament parable about the servant to whom our Lord gave one talent of silver and who, for fear of losing it and in an attempt to preserve it, buried it in the ground instead of using it to multiply his resources. Alas, in the end that servant ended up losing even that which he had.

I assure those parents in Newfoundland desiring a religious orientation for their children that this amendment, no matter how it is disposed of, does not extinguish their rights and concerns from the mind and conscience of members of Parliament like me.

I conclude by identifying the obligations which the passage of this amendment by the federal parliament places on the Government of Newfoundland.

With 27% of those voting in the last referendum being opposed to the proposed educational reforms, it seems to me that the Government of Newfoundland has a big job to do in making sure that its educational reforms work to the advantage of all Newfoundlanders.

The whole issue of how to reform educational systems without prejudicially affecting rights previously granted, particularly the rights of minority groups, would be immeasurably enhanced if provincial educational reformers would include in their packages a proviso granting parents the right to designate school taxes to the school of their choice and an assurance that the approved list of available schools would include as wide a range of educational and value options as is practical in the jurisdiction.

Amendment To The Constitution Of Canada (Newfoundland) December 8th, 1997

Madam Speaker, I rise to address the question of the Newfoundland schools amendment and in particular the motion before the House to utilize section 43 of the Constitution Act, 1982 to amend the constitution. The purpose of this amendment is to replace the present term 17 of the Terms of Union of Newfoundland with Canada with a new term 17.

The effect of this amendment is to replace the denominational school system of Newfoundland with a single public school system where all children, regardless of their religious affiliation, will attend the same schools. Stated another way, the effect of this amendment is to extinguish the denominational rights provided in the present term 17 and replace them with the provisions and rights contained in the new term 17, namely the provision of a single, publicly operated school system, the provision for courses in religion not specific to a religious denomination, and the rights of parents to request religious observances in schools.

Before getting into the details I would like to express two sentiments which will govern everything I have to say on this subject. First I want to express, on behalf of the members of the official opposition, our good will toward the people in the province of Newfoundland and our sincere interest in their desire to improve their educational system.

We all know the enormous difficulties that Newfoundland has faced and the economic hardships that have been caused by the collapse of the fishery, one of the basic primary industries of that province.

Alberta MPs like me can identify with this because our parents lived through a period when our province was flat on its back due to the collapse of its primary industry, agriculture, during the great depression. We can also identify with the recent good news from Newfoundland that after an enormous front end capital investment and the application of great technical ingenuity, the first oil is now flowing from Hibernia.

It was primarily oil and gas which transformed the economy of my home province. I want to express the hope that the development of this resource will mean the dawning of a new day for the province of Newfoundland and a stream of revenue that will enable it to finance the social services, including the educational services, required by its people.

I also want to say that the members of the official opposition fully respect Newfoundland's jurisdiction over education. We know that education deals with Newfoundland's most precious resource, the lives of its children. We therefore wish Newfoundlanders well in whatever educational reforms they decide to undertake and whatever the future may hold.

The second point is that as members of the federal Parliament, we should define our principles and choose our positions carefully when we are dealing with constitutional amendments. Over the next number of years this Parliament could very well be faced with major constitutional challenges, not just from the continuing secession threat from Quebec, but demands that will arise from various parts of the country for major changes in our constitutional arrangements, changes affecting the division of powers between the federal and provincial governments and the balance between majority and minority rights.

Everything we do and say in this area of constitutional law can be taken as political, if not a legal, precedent in future situations. We should therefore look down the road as to the precedent effect of anything we propose or adopt in relation to the Newfoundland schools amendment.

When we define positions on majority and minority rights with respect to this amendment, we should think through how those same positions would relate to other situations where majority and minority rights are constitutionally affected.

When we define positions and make statements about what constitutes democratic consent for a constitutional proposal from Newfoundland, we should think through how that same principle would apply in other situations where we require democratic consent. For example, I have noted with interest the language used by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs in providing his definition of the principle of democratic consent. In his presentation to the special joint committee on November 18, 1997 he said:

Given this amendment's impact on minority rights, a mere 50 plus one referendum majority would not have been sufficient nor adequate in measuring the degree of consensus among those affected. But the referendum did not result in a narrow majority: It was an overwhelming majority of 73%, which provided evidence of minority support.

This is all well and good, but I note that it is a slightly different conception of democratic consent from what was taken by the government in 1996 when the previous Newfoundland school amendment came before the House. The referendum that preceded that amendment carried by only 54%, but on that occasion the government considered that a big enough majority to satisfy the requirement of democratic consent. The government will want to strive for consistency on this point because inconsistency on the principle of democratic consent will not go unnoticed by us or by others.

I also noted with interest just a few minutes ago the pronouncements of the minister on whether denominational or confessional rights are fundamental rights under the law. It is maintained by many that denominational or confessional rights are not a fundamental right. This is primarily the view of the secular and legalistic mind and the courts and the minister hold and defend that view. But to the religious mind for those whom matters of faith and conscience are supreme, confessional rights are seen as an extension of freedom of conscience and freedom of religion. Therefore they are in some way fundamental.

The minister argues that the right to confessional schools in Quebec is not a fundamental right. Therefore, by logical extension the right to linguistic schools in Quebec is not a fundamental right. I would be very surprised if the majority of Quebeckers do not regard the right to linguistic schools as a fundamental extension of their right to freedom of speech and expression.

This matter of what is fundamental and what is not in its broadest sense therefore very much depends on your orientation and your deepest values.

Hon. members will forgive me if I take a moment, as the first speaker for the official opposition on this motion, to briefly sketch our understanding of the background behind the constitutional amendment requested of us by the government of Newfoundland.

If I sketch the background here—and I know this is very familiar to those who have been following this issue but not as familiar to those who have not in detail—then subsequent Reform speakers will not need to repeat it and can deal directly with more important details and matters of principle.

We also want to state our understanding so that other members, especially the members from Newfoundland, can correct us if we misunderstood or misinterpreted the background in any way.

I have read the background to term 17 provided by the minister and by the special joint committee as to the origins of the original term 17 and I find them deficient on one very important point. It was a point which I was reminded of by former Premier Wells when he was in town last week.

That point is that term 17 was included in the original terms of Union primarily to meet a political, not a legal or a constitutional requirement. When Newfoundlanders were debating whether to join Canada in 1949, one of the principal arguments of those opposed to the union was that union with Canada would destroy Newfoundland's unique denominational educational school system. To take that argument away, Joey Smallwood and others proposed the original term 17 in the terms of union to provide a constitutional guarantee of the continuance of that unique educational system.

That original term 17 read as follows:

17(1) In lieu of Section 93 of the British North America Act, 1867, the following term shall apply in respect of the province of Newfoundland: in and for the province of Newfoundland the legislature shall have exclusive authority to make laws in relation to education, but the legislature will not have authority to make laws prejudicially affecting any right or privilege with respect to denominational schools, common (amalgamated) schools, or denominational colleges, that any class or classes or persons have by law in Newfoundland at the date of union and out of public funds of the province of Newfoundland provided for education.

A) All such schools shall receive their share of such funds in accordance with scales determined on a non-discriminatory basis from time to time by the legislature for all schools then being conducted under authority of the legislature; and

B) All such colleges shall receive their share of any grant from time to time voted for all colleges then being conducted under authority of the legislature, such grant being distributed on a non-discriminatory basis.

The language used in this original term 17 is borrowed from section 93 of the British North America Act of 1867 which said in part:

In and for each province, the legislature may exclusively make laws in relation to education, subject and according to the following provisions:

1) nothing in any such law shall prejudicially affect any right or privilege with respect to denominational schools which any class of persons have by law in the province at the union.

I am indebted to the minister and to others for pointing out that section 93 itself does not apply to the province of Newfoundland and, hence, no amendment to term 17 can strictly be said to violate section 93. Term 17 in all its forms is said to apply “in lieu of section 93 of the Constitution Act, 1867.”

The original term 17 guaranteed the denominational school rights of seven specific religious groups. In 1987 it was amended to include another denomination, the Pentecostal Assemblies of Newfoundland, in the denominational schools system.

As members will know, in 1992 after two years of study, the Williams royal commission recommended the reorganization of the school system in Newfoundland and Labrador to permit the government to administer the system in a more efficient way. The commission proposed the creation of a single interdenominational school system encompassing the four separate denominational systems then in operation.

In June 1995 the government of Newfoundland sought the approval of the people to amend term 17 of the terms of union in order to proceed with these restructuring plans. A referendum was held on the following question: “Do you support revising term 17 in the manner proposed by the government to enable reform of the denomination educational system? Yes or no?” The result was approved by 54.4% of those voting. The proposed amendment of term 17 altered the rights to denominational schools in Newfoundland but did not extinguish them and endeavoured to reconcile them with the demands for a more updated system. It was a compromise solution.

On December 4, 1996, the House of Commons, of course, passed a resolution to amend term 17 as proposed, and that revised term 17, the term currently in place reads as follows: For the written record, I would like to have this current term 17 recorded in this place in Hansard , but to save the time of the House I would seek the consent of the House to dispense from actually reading the entire section and have it recorded in Hansard as read.

The Economy December 4th, 1997

Mr. Speaker, the government thinks that helping people and cutting debt and taxes are opposites. What Canadians are telling the government is that these things go hand in hand.

The government taxes the poor more heavily than either the Americans or the British, so broad based tax relief helps the poor, including poor children.

The $45 billion a year the government is paying on interest eats the heart out of social programs, so debt reduction helps social programs.

How long will it take the government to understand that debt reduction and tax relief are—

The Economy December 4th, 1997

Mr. Speaker, the government knows nothing about balance when it comes to debt and taxes.

Under Liberal governments personal income taxes have risen to the highest levels in the G-7. Under the government the debt has risen in total to close to $600 billion and Canada's youth are stuck with the tab.

In today's poll it was significant that it was Canadians under 30 years of age who were most insistent that the government address the debt.

Why is the government considering more spending when young Canadians are demanding that it address the balance sheet first?