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Crucial Fact

  • His favourite word was fact.

Last in Parliament February 2019, as Liberal MP for Kings—Hants (Nova Scotia)

Won his last election, in 2015, with 71% of the vote.

Statements in the House

Public Sector Pension Investment Board Act May 25th, 1999

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from the New Democratic Party for her question.

The issue is that the government has taken the EI program and fund, which existed for the benefit of workers and employers to enhance labour market flexibility which benefits all Canadians and the economy, and has created what is really an EI tax. Only 30% of those who pay into the EI fund actually qualify to receive benefits. As a result, 70% of that is an EI tax. Only 30% of the contributions to the EI fund are actually EI premiums. The government has taken an already complicated Canadian tax code and made it more complicated, less transparent and more confusing.

Through maintaining unnecessarily high EI premiums and slashing benefits at the same time, it has also created increased distortions. For instance, one of the goals of tax reform should be to reduce the distortions taxes may have on a particular part of the economy.

Canada has twice the unemployment rate of the U.S. We should be seeking to reduce the cost of the labour input to encourage more companies to hire people.

Instead by maintaining unnecessarily high premiums and by not developing more innovative programs, particularly in the areas of training and retraining, the government is denying labour market flexibility to Canadian companies and employees. That is absolutely unacceptable in a very competitive global environment.

In terms of the government trend of delving into the EI fund for other types of spending or in terms of using the public service pension plan, which is what we are talking about directly with Bill C-78, the government is in the position where it can change the rules as it goes. It can change the rules that will affect Canadians for decades while it is focused on its own limited goals which are focused on the next election. The impact of the next election and what the Liberals will be doing over the next couple of years to try to win that election could be very negative for Canadians for decades in the future.

I have heard it said that politics is the natural enemy of public policy. I am afraid that in this case that is the case. The Liberals are changing the rules to suit their own short term political goals. They change the rules as they go. Unlike the private sector pension plans, where Bill S-3, the Pension Benefits Standards Act, sets out guidelines for the private sector by which the private sector is expected to abide, this government can actually change the rules.

The government is saying that there is nothing legally stopping it from delving into this fund. If there is nothing stopping it, why does it have to introduce legislation in this House, force closure and deny parliamentary debate in order to implement this legislation so it has access? The government knows that it cannot access the pension fund unless it breaks the rules so it is changing the rules. Why? Because it is the government and it does not respect the parliamentary process.

Public Sector Pension Investment Board Act May 25th, 1999

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to rise to speak to Bill C-78. The government claims that the purpose of the legislation is to improve the financial management of the pension fund of federal public servants, the RCMP and the military. We should be very skeptical when the government claims to be doing anything to improve the conditions of the federal public service.

The government has acted in an unprecedented manner in opposition to our public service and has created the lowest level of morale in the history of the public service in Canada. There was the wage freeze our public servants have dealt with under the government. There was the back to work legislation and the government's refusal to utilize binding arbitration as a legitimate negotiating tool. There was the incredible level of layoffs.

For instance, there is the government's latest attack on the public service through the privatization of Revenue Canada and its attempts to create a new arm's length agency to administer the taxes of the country and take up to 40,000 public servants out of the public service. It is part of a continued attack on the public service of our country and ultimately one that will imperil the public service and the quality of services received by Canadians from their public servants.

The government is not interested in improving the financial management of the pension funds of public servants. The government is more interested in the cash windfall of $30 billion that it can take from the public service pension plan through the legislation. The legislation provides the mechanisms through which the government can access that $30 billion. The government is claiming that money will be used against the debt, but it is just a cash transfer on paper. It is not an actual cash transfer in terms of money going from one program to another. It is basically just a paper transfer.

Effectively what the government is doing, and it is quite cynical really, is taking this money and using a divide and conquer type of attack to pit federal public servants against Canadians at large by saying this money will go against the debts of Canadians at large. It is ignoring the fact that this fund was created through contributions by the public service and the federal government into their pension plans and that this fund was created to protect the public servants and their pension plans against the risks of future deficits.

This is particularly important given that part of the legislation will result in the pension being invested in private equity markets where there will be larger risks in the future. It is very important at this time when we are engaging in a potentially riskier investment strategy, which will provide a higher return ultimately. With that higher risk which is commensurate with a higher return we need to ensure the appropriate surplus exists. That $30 billion should be kept either within the public service pension plan or used to improve benefits for public servants who have had an unprecedented sustained attack by the federal government.

This is analogous to the federal government's EI fund strategy. The government has built a surplus since 1993 in the EI fund by maintaining unnecessarily high rates and at the same time slashing benefits. The government has an insatiable appetite for cold cash and that seems to be the only explanation for the continued expropriation of the pension fund.

We heard of expropriation earlier in terms of land and the Nanoose Bay issue where the government has taken the same arrogant approach to the financial management of our country either with the EI fund or in this case the public service pension issue.

To go back to the EI issue, the government is maintaining an egregiously regressive tax on lower income Canadians. For instance, a Canadian making $39,000 per year will pay the same amount of EI premiums in terms of total EI premiums and contributions as someone making $300,000. The government is taking that money from lower and middle lower income Canadians and using it to subsidize other program spending. It is simply not fair.

To add insult to injury, the result is that through the government's slashing of benefits EI programs are only available to 30% of those who pay into them, even with the absolutely devastating seasonal unemployment in Atlantic Canada where the economy dictates that a significant part of employment is seasonal.

There is some agreement that the government has a legal right to the surplus. If the government had a legal right to the surplus it would not need this legislation to access the surplus. The government is in the position to implement legislation, to bring forward bills and legislation to change the rules whenever it wants, and that is exactly what it is doing. The government does not have the ability to access the pensions of federal superannuates and federal public service pensions without the legislation. The government is changing the rules.

A private corporation does not have the ability to change the rules in this way. In a private pension plan there are typically agreements between the corporation and the employees on the contribution rates over the period of time and on the benefits. If there is a surplus there is a set of guidelines which the corporation follows in the division of that surplus.

It was not that many years ago that a gentleman by the name of Robert Maxwell jumped off his boat or fell or something. He faced an unfortunate demise off the side of his yacht. A few weeks later it was public knowledge that for several years he had been taking from the pension plans of his employees, many of whom were left in tremendous financial straits due to the fact that he had been taking from their pension plan over a period of time. That is an example of what would happen if a company took this kind of approach to a private sector pension plan.

The government is saying that this is a defined benefit plan, that the government has all the liabilities and that the people who pay into it do not have any of the liabilities. As such the government is claiming that it would have the ability to do whatever it wants with it. The government sometimes points to a deficit in the fund which existed in the mid-eighties and the fact that the government paid the deficit. It was simply an accounting deficit that existed. The government wiped it out. It used the offsetting interest income surplus to do that.

It is a bit of a red herring when the government says that it paid off the deficit in this fund in the mid-eighties because in fact it used an offsetting interest income surplus to pay off that deficit. What is particularly offensive is that the government is going against its own rules with the legislation.

It was not that long ago that the Pension Benefits Standards Act, Bill S-3, was initiated in the Senate and passed by parliament. It outlined the proper procedure for pension plans to deal with the issues of surplus in private sector pension plans.

If the government were following these rules it would be behaving very differently than how it is actually behaving with the public service pension plan in Bill C-78. The government has set a double standard. It has one set of rules for the private sector and another set of rules for itself. It is changing the rules as it goes to fit whatever short term or long term political goals it has as a government.

This could create a very dangerous precedent in that private sector corporations could seek to forgo the guidelines set forth by the government in Bill S-3 that were designed to protect both corporations and the people who pay into the pension plans. Private sector corporations could forgo the following of those guidelines and legitimately say that the government has broken its own rules.

For instance, under Bill S-3, if a withdrawal takes place logically the plan members would expect to see a significant increase in benefits. Typically it would be commensurate with the levels paid into the private sector pension plan based on the contribution rates. For instance, if it were a 40:60 pay-in, with the employer paying in 60% and the employee paying in 40%, a withdrawal of 60% of the surplus would mean a commensurate increase of 40% in the benefits enjoyed by both current and future pension recipients.

Unfortunately this is another example where the government is participating in an unprecedented level of hypocrisy. It is asking the private sector to play by one set of rules and feels it can get away with playing by another set of rules which it is changing on an ongoing basis. It is also a further example of the unadulterated attack on the public service in Canada.

It has long been acknowledged that public sector workers have accepted in some cases below market wages in exchange for job security and fairly decent but well deserved pension plans. Over time we have seen job security disappear from the public service. The wages in many cases are now far below those of the private sector. One of the arguments the government uses for the privatization of Revenue Canada is that if Revenue Canada were privatized it would have the freedom to pay employees of Revenue Canada or the new Revenue Canada agency more competitively to compete with the private sector.

The government is actually abdicating its responsibility for positive and constructive human resource management by saying that it cannot do that with the public service. It is privatizing a huge arm of the government, Revenue Canada. It refuses to deal with the systemic issues that are pervasive throughout the public service and is dealing with these issues with band-aid solutions that will create more problems in the long term.

Ultimately the morale of the public service is an issue that affects every Canadian. The quality of services and the value we receive for our tax dollars depends largely on the quality of the work of our public service. The quality of the work of our public service depends on the morale of the public service. There is a significant long term cost to Canadians whenever the government takes another attack on the public service. We should take very seriously the long term impacts of this continued attack on the public service.

Another issue is the anticipated premium increases for contributions to this plan which will increase from 7.5% of salary to as high as 11% of salary by 2010. This means that public servants will be paying a higher and higher percentage of their salary into the plan over time.

As the payroll deductions, or payroll taxes as some refer to them, continue to increase, it will become increasingly difficult to retain existing public servants and to attract young people, some of Canada's best and brightest to the public service. They will be attracted to better paying jobs in the private sector.

Our country needs a viable productive public service. Over time Canada has produced some exceptional accomplishments through our public service, as well as through the private sector. If we talk to some of professors and administrators at the universities who teach public administration, we learn that the skills being taught in public administration courses are not dissimilar from many of the courses being taught in business schools.

I come from a private sector background. I was involved in small and medium size businesses. I have an undergrad degree in business. I enjoy the private sector. I also have a public ethic which is why I am here.

Many Canadians who share the skills I have in terms of administrative abilities want to work within the public sector and have a public ethic. They may not be as interested in the private sector. In a lot of cases these people study business and enter businesses but really they would rather work productively to create a better public service. We need a greater focus on attracting some of the best and brightest, not just to business, but also to a public service that Canadians and public servants can be proud of.

The government has continued to reduce the quality of working conditions within the public service. Ultimately it will reduce the quality of services received by Canadians.

I am pleased to see that the government is moving toward seeing that the funds within these pension plans will be invested in external financial markets. I am concerned about some of the elements the government is going about doing this.

It is very important to realize that the public service pension funds will represent in the not too distant future about $100 billion. The capitalization of the Toronto stock exchange is about $650 billion. It does not take a lot of analysis to recognize that this potentially could have a huge impact on capital markets.

This would be a perfect opportunity for the government to move in separate legislation to increase the foreign content limits for Canadian pension investments, not just within these types of public pensions but also within RRSPs. Many people defend the current 20:80 rule on foreign content, that 80% of an RRSP for instance has to be invested domestically and only 20% can be invested offshore. Many proponents of that rule state it would have deleterious effects on the Canadian equities markets if we were to loosen that rule and allow Canadians to invest their own money offshore.

The influx of capital by the Canada pension plan and this public sector pension plan into Canadian equities markets represents a golden opportunity for the government to do what it really should do. It should reduce and ultimately eliminate the foreign content rule. I would suggest that up to 50% almost immediately should be allowed to be invested offshore so that Canadians can enjoy geographic diversification as part of their portfolios. In this case public servants could enjoy the kind of return on investment that is provided by geographic diversification.

The fact is that since 1993 the Dow Jones and other indices in the U.S. including Standard & Poor's, have far outstripped the growth in terms of equities that we have seen in the TSE. The TSE has grown by about 60% since 1993. During the same period of time the Dow Jones has appreciated by about 190% and the Standard & Poor's 500 has grown by around 180%. Wealth being a relative thing, Canadians are getting poorer while our neighbours to the south are actually getting richer. This is a brilliant opportunity. I hope the government moves aggressively to address that.

The other issue is that the government has modelled the pension management board on the Canada pension plan investment board. It has ignored some of the recommendations made in this House and in the other place. A recommendation in the report relative to the Canada pension plan investment board from the banking committee in the other place said:

Directors of the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board collectively have a broad range of experiences and expertise. While the benefits of appointing directors with proven financial ability are clear, the committee believes that a majority of the directors should have expertise in pension fund management and other relevant skills.

That was very sound advice. Pension fund management is a very specific art or science. Someone who has managed a business may not necessarily be good at managing a pension fund. Business experience is not the sole criteria by which we should judge fund managers. This has been ignored by the government in this legislation and it continues to do its own thing.

The government is not seeking constructive input from this House or the other place. The government is not seeking legitimate public policy development. The government is only seeking from this House, from parliament, a rubber stamping of the ideas and legislation it wants to implement. This has to stop because the secular decline of the role of the parliamentarian will ultimately lead to the secular decline of democracy and its benefits to Canadians.

Agriculture May 14th, 1999

Mr. Speaker, the federal deputy minister of agriculture was in Nova Scotia on Monday for a press conference with the premier to announce that Nova Scotia was finally joining the federal farm aid deal.

Everybody was led to believe that Nova Scotia was receiving $7.5 million in new federal dollars for farmers. The provincial minister said it was this guarantee of $7.5 million which eventually convinced him to sign Nova Scotia on to the federal deal.

Why did the minister of agriculture lead Nova Scotia farmers to believe that they would receive $7.5 million in federal aid when in fact the actual figure is $3 million less?

Public Sector Pension Investment Board Act May 11th, 1999

Madam Speaker, I regret that we again do not have enough time allocated to debate a very important piece of public policy, Bill C-78, which deals with several issues that are of great importance to Canadians, including the ones we are dealing with in this group of amendments.

The issue of same sex benefits, whether it is in the public service or the private sector, has been an issue that has developed over a period of years. I would remind members of the House that the supreme court has been consistent in its interpretation of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms which protects the rights of all Canadians. That is very important.

It is also important to remind ourselves as members of the House that we were elected to represent and defend the rights of all our constituent and to protect the rights of all Canadians. That is not simply the groups of Canadians that we tend to agree with or the groups of Canadians that we feel live in a lifestyle that we happen to support. We were elected to support and represent all Canadians.

As some suggest, this is not an issue of the redefinition of the family. This is not about the redefinition of marriage. This is simply an issue of fairness.

There are some people who use the phraseology “family values”. Family values should be an intrinsically positive phrase. I think every member of the House believes very strongly in the benefits of a supportive, close-knit family, a nurturing family that provides support and encouragement throughout one's life.

If we are serious about defending the family, defending family values, defending the principles of support and that type of important nuclear relationship that can exist within a family, we should be encouraging all Canadians to live in the types of unions that provide them with that level of support throughout their lives. If we are serious about it, we should be encouraging not discouraging Canadians to live in those types of relationships.

Unfortunately, family values is used by some members of the House as a euphemism for discriminatory policy against one group or another. Although some would argue that when we extend rights or protect the rights of some we diminish the rights of others, there is absolutely no precedent in history to that effect. A significant number of precendents have been set throughout history showing that when we fail to protect the rights of one group we imperil the rights of all groups collectively. It is very important for all of us in the House to defend the rights of all the people we represent and all Canadians.

Seventy-five per cent of Canadians support human rights legislation to protect gays and lesbians from discrimination based on sexual orientation. The supreme court has been consistent in its interpretation of the charter of rights. There is currently a federal legal challenge that was initiated in January 1999 to force the federal government to recognize same sex benefits within the public service. The PSAC union has represented the interests of its members in this case in support of the extension of same sex benefits, particularly relative to survivors.

This debate is not dissimilar to the debate that I believe existed at some point relative to common law spouses and an extension of survivor benefits to common law spouses that has taken place in the House. We have seen how that has evolved. The family has evolved and there is a more flexible definition of the family in that regard.

We can have two individuals working for the public service who perhaps work in the same job category or even in the same office with desks next to each other. One person is in a heterosexual marriage, works for the government for 10 years and then dies. The survivor benefits, based on what he or she has paid into the pension plan, will be there for his or her survivor.

In the other case, the second individual could be gay or lesbian and living in a long term supportive relationship with dependants. He or she may also have worked in the same job over a period of 10 years. However, if something happens to this person, the spouse will be denied benefits despite the fact that both the first individual and the second individual paid taxes and both paid identically into the public service pension plan. This is a clear case of where the government needs to ensure that this discriminatory policy is not permitted. Canadians do not want a discriminatory policy to be part of our public service.

Corporations, not just government, have been proactive in terms of providing these types of benefits. I will list a few of the corporations, universities and provincial governments that have moved in this direction: 3M; A & W Canada; Air Canada; Air Ontario; BC Telecom; Bank of Nova Scotia; Bank of Montreal; IBM Canada; Chrysler Canada; General Electric; Levis Strauss; London Life; McMillan Bloedel; Sears; Stentor Resources; and Toronto-Dominion Bank. I think part of the reason for this move is from the legal perspective that there is no choice. We do have a charter of rights and freedoms in Canada that was put in place to protect the rights of all Canadians. The supreme court has been consistent in its interpretation of that charter of rights.

I do resent the fact that the government has not allowed proper debate and discussion on this very important issue and has slipped this into another piece of legislation. The government has pitted members of parliament, whose views on these issues have been very clear for some time, against something they believe in. It is unfortunate because this is a fundamental issue of fairness. Fairness is a tenet of Canadian policy, not just Canadian social policy but of what it means to be a Canadian, our determination as Canadians to stand up and defend the rights of minorities and of those who are being persecuted, not just within Canada, but anywhere in the world.

We are known around the world through our peacekeepers and through our foreign policy initiatives as a country that stands up to defend the rights of all peoples. Yet within our own country we still have intrinsically discriminatory policy within the legislative framework. The government has moved to address this, but I do not believe that it has acted appropriately in terms of providing this as part of a very comprehensive piece of legislation that will effectively pit members of parliament, who may agree with some elements, against the legislation.

Polling is supportive of the extension of same sex benefits. However, I would never argue that we should use polls to determine policies on minority rights. Populism is not the proper means through which to develop minority rights. If in the U.S. polling had dictated what the leaders were going to do during the civil rights movement, the civil rights movement would not have moved forward. Black Americans probably would not have been given the vote if polling had determined what the government was going to do.

What defines the difference between politicians and political leaders is that politicians do what the polls tell them to do and political leaders do what is right.

The government is not doing what is right by being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century avoiding debates on very important issues like this one and denying proper debate in parliament on issues that are important to all Canadians.

Public Sector Pension Investment Board Act May 11th, 1999

Madam Speaker, it is with a degree of sadness that I rise today to speak to Bill C-78. I believe that many members of the House, including members on the government side, share this sense of remorse for the process in which we are participating. We feel very badly that we are participating in what effectively, and let us be candid about it, is a parliamentary charade. Canadians can watch this on CPAC. Somehow, in some way, the government is trying to demonstrate that there is legitimate parliamentary debate on important public policy issues, in this case Bill C-78, which is a 200 page bill, a complicated piece of legislation which affects all Canadian public servants and entails remarkable changes, sweeping changes, relative to $100 billion ultimately.

Canadians may, in watching this, actually believe that there has been legitimate debate. I would like to inform Canadians who may be watching that there has not been legitimate debate. The government has railroaded this through parliament, through the committee process, through the House and has utilized closure again. The government has, at an unprecedented rate, used the instrument of closure to railroad legislation through parliament. It has not allowed the committee to effectively study this important piece of legislation.

The government claims that the main purpose of the legislation is to improve the financial management of the financial sector pension funds and the superannuate funds of the federal public servants, RCMP and military. Keep in mind that the average annual pension for these individuals is around $9,000 per year. These are not fat cats we are talking about. They are very average Canadians.

We should be sceptical whenever the government claims to have the interest of public servants at heart, particularly if we look at the record of the government on public servants. Sunday's Ottawa Citizen said that the Treasury Board president “has clobbered public servants harder than any cabinet minister in Canada's history”.

The politics of attacking public servants is similar to the politics of attacking politicians. It is very easy to attack a group that may not be particularly popular with the public because of misperceptions, or to make gratuitous attacks on the banking sector which the government has been willing to do.

It is very cynical that the government would use in a political sense any tool it has to attack groups that may not be incredibly popular but are groups that have legitimate causes and claims. For the government to play a very dangerous and cynical political game of pitting one group of Canadians against another simply for political expediency and political palatability is atrocious.

The government has eliminated 55,000 federal jobs, has frozen wages, has eliminated job security from the public service and has appealed the pay equity ruling in opposition to Liberal Party policy. I think it was a red book promise. It is a government that continues to use heavy-handed back to work legislation and suspends binding arbitration. This is the same Liberal Party that under the leadership of Lester Pearson introduced collective bargaining to the public service 30 years ago.

The current government leaders and the Prime Minister are being the patron saints of hypocrisy in backtracking on every major tenet of not just Liberal policy, but also of the fundamentals of fairness we value as Canadians.

It is the government that introduced back to work legislation to end a strike of 14,000 blue collar workers. Again, these are not high income workers within the public service. The government maintained the policy of regional rates of pay and a ghettoization of public servants. It introduced the back to work legislation without proper debate and sought closure.

The President of the Treasury Board reached a tentative agreement with the public servants and withheld that information from parliament before a crucial vote. That night he snookered the Reform Party. Unwittingly the Reform Party supported the back to work legislation because the government had pitted the interests of one group against another, in this case the grain farmers and the grain industry in the west against the interests of blue collar public servants.

Again that was cynical. It was an abuse of the parliamentary process and an abuse of members of parliament that should not only offend the Reform Party members, and I am sure it does, but it should also offend members of parliament on the government side of the House who watched that night and who participated in the vote without the proper information.

The level of morale in the public service is at an all-time low. While Canadian corporations are pursuing innovative labour-management and human resources management policies, the government is continuing to attack the public service and ignore the fact that the public sector represents 40% of the Canadian economy.

I see some hon. members present who serve on the finance committee with me. We are studying the issue of productivity. When 40% of our economy is public sector and the government has created a level of morale that has never been lower within the public service, I would argue that we have a productivity issue within our public service. This government through its continued gratuitous attacks on the public service has had a significant deleterious effect on the morale and the productivity of the federal public service. It has impacted the growth and future prosperity of Canadians in doing so.

The only group this government has demonstrated more contempt for besides public servants is members of parliament in this House. The government is persistent in its propensity to use closure and to railroad legislation through committees and through this House without legitimate and important public policy debate. Committees are being operated as branch plants of the ministers' offices. Government members are told to pass bills but not really discuss them. There is no objective, constructive development of public policy as there should be and at a time when public policy and the challenges facing us are very complex.

There has been a secular decline in the role of the MP which has occurred over a 30 year period. This decline has occurred at a precipitous level under this government.

With this legislation the government is failing to follow its own guidelines set out in S-3, the pension benefits standards act for the private sector. It sets out guidelines for the private sector and for private sector employers which the government itself is unwilling to use. Why is it doing that? Because it wants to get its hands on that $30 billion surplus.

The government would tell Canadians that that money is being applied to the debt. Keep in mind, in some ways it is a theoretical number; it is just a paper shift. The fact is that the government has not done anything to better Canadians by taking that from one group and putting it against the national debt.

The government has done something it believes to benefit itself politically. Come the next election the government will claim credit and say that it reduced the debt by the figure of $30 billion when it has not. Public servants through their pensions and their sacrifices, work and contributions over the years have provided the ability for the government to have that surplus and the government is taking that in a very cynical way.

I have said cynical several times. I feel very cynical today to be participating in this process where the government is again pitting the Canadian public against the public service, creating more division in a country that needs more unity. We should be working particularly in a post-deficit and a surplus environment to rebuild our relationships as parliamentarians and as government with the public service.

The Federal Superannuates National Association, the FSNA, has done a very good job on this, as have other organizations. The federal superannuates were effective in their lobby against the seniors benefit package which through clawbacks would have reduced pension benefits for seniors.

This government is not focused on creating better prosperity for Canadians. This government is focused solely on the next election and not on the next century. This treatment of parliament and of public servants has to end.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 1998 May 10th, 1999

Madam Speaker, the GST was arguably the straw that broke the government's back. I am not sure of the camel to which the member referred, but the government seemed to be ignominiously humped from office at that point.

The difficulty the government faced at that time in selling the GST, which replaced the manufacturers sales tax that pummelled and punished Canadian export industries, was that only 18% of Canadians were aware that there was a manufacturers sales tax. It was not a good news story. People were not aware by and large that there was a manufacturers sales tax. This new tax was a very difficult sell.

A couple of weeks ago I participated in the Canadian Tax Foundation annual meeting on a weekend. That is what I do with my weekends; I go to tax foundation meetings. I am a pretty exciting guy. At that meeting over and over again tax experts suggested that the baby step movement in Canada with the GST to a consumption base was very important for Canadian competitiveness.

They argued that we need to move further toward a consumption base and away from income based taxation and taxes on capital and income on capital. Those types of taxes, whether they are on capital, income from capital or personal or corporate income, make Canadian industry and Canadian individuals less competitive. They hurt our productivity, reduce the potential for Canadians and companies to grow jobs, and hurt our potential to keep Canada's best and brightest young people in Canada.

A consumption tax, and there are ways to effect progressivity within a consumption base, would provide a more broadly based system which should not and would not increase the degree of the underground economy.

The numbers used by people in terms of the degree to which we have an underground economy in Canada vary significantly. It is much harder to get around paying GST than it is for people to use high priced tax accountants and get away with paying less income tax. As the member indicated earlier in his speech, there is an inherent regressivity in the tax system. People at the higher income levels can afford to hire tax experts and pay less income taxes, corporate taxes or whatever. With a consumption base it is much harder to get around that. I would argue that it would ultimately reduce in the long run the degree to which there is an underground economy if we are serious.

Another issue that exists is that it is much easier today to have significant tax reform than it would have been in 1993 because we are in a post deficit or surplus environment. We need not improve the tax situation for one individual by reducing or hurting another individual with the tax system. It is not a zero sum game any more. We can combine tax reform with tax reduction. I would argue that to maximize the potential of either we need to implement both.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 1998 May 10th, 1999

Madam Speaker, the member raised the very important issue of the significant investment in Canada in social infrastructure aimed at producing bright, talented young people who ultimately choose to live in other jurisdictions if we do not reduce our tax burden. That represents a huge loss of potential and a huge loss of investment for Canadians and for Canada. If we take into account the cumulative effect over the person's life of the bright young talent that we lose, it is immense.

I agree with the member. We have to address tax issues if we are to benefit from the type of social investment we spoke of. He referred to the same studies, Dr. Fraser Mustard's studies on early childhood intervention, which is very important and very innovative.

In terms of a tax break which would benefit specifically the high tech sector, I agree with the hon. member that we do not need a more complicated and Pavlovian tax code that encourages one behaviour and discourages another. We need significant broad based tax reform aimed at providing all Canadian industries and individuals with a heightened level of competitiveness.

I guess in Canada all sectors are high tax sectors, but we should be fostering and supporting our high tech sector. I would argue that the tax system should not be used to encourage or discourage one type of behaviour or another. I am in complete compliance and agreement with the hon. member that we need broad based tax reform effort aimed at reducing corporate and personal income taxes, at simplifying both of them, and at moving our tax bases from the taxing of capital and income on capital.

In a global sense and in a competitive sense we have to move toward a consumption tax base. We can have a consumption tax base that is progressive. There are ways to ensure movement toward a consumption tax which need not sacrifice the progressivity that is important to Canadians as part of our tax code.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 1998 May 10th, 1999

Madam Speaker, before I begin my comments I would like to commend my colleague from the New Democratic Party on his comments today on tax reform as opposed to tax cuts. I think that is a very important distinction that needs to be made.

The problems we face as a country are perhaps more complicated now than they have ever been. The challenges that we face change more rapidly now than we have ever seen before. We are in a rapidly changing, globally competitive environment. Within that context, Canada now, more than ever, needs significant holistic tax reform.

My colleague referred to the Carter Commission which travelled the country formulating public policy in the 1960s. I believe those tax reforms were implemented in 1971. The next tax reform that was significant was in the late 1980s, I believe 1988, when there was a significant broadening of the bases and decreasing of the number of brackets.

Of course, we will remember the GST in 1993, a significant tax reform which resulted in significant political reform, most of which, politically, was not positive. That being the case, the impact of the GST, I would argue, ultimately has been quite positive. It replaced the manufacturers sales tax, which pummelled Canadian enterprise in a global environment, and replaced it with a consumption based tax.

Increasingly that is what tax experts and productivity experts are calling for, a movement from taxes on capital, from taxes on income, to a more fairly based consumption tax, which could in fact be progressive. It need not sacrifice progressivity as an expense to a tax system that fosters competitiveness. I appreciated his comments.

These are exciting times that we live in today in Canada. It took 14 years, from 1984 to 1998, to eliminate the deficit. In fact, the leader of the Reform Party in this House said that deficit reduction in Canada really began back in 1984. At that time, when the Progressive Conservative government was first elected, the deficit as a percentage of GDP was around 9%. Over the next nine years it was reduced from 9% to around 5%. At the same time program spending growth was reduced from 15% per year to zero growth by the time that government left office rather suddenly in 1993.

Since then efforts to reduce the deficit have continued, largely abetted and aided by the policies implemented by the previous government. Those policies were free trade, the elimination of the manufacturers sales tax, the introduction of the GST, and the deregulation of financial services, transportation and energy. Those structural changes in the Canadian economy made by that government were credited by the Economist magazine in 1998 as being pivotal and important for the reduction and the ultimate elimination of the deficit in Canada.

The reason I mention this very important period of time in Canadian history in terms of fiscal policy and economic policy is because I believe that as we enter the new millennium, as we enter a period where change is going to be more rapid and the challenges facing Canadians are going to be ever more complex, we need a government that is more than a caretaker, more than a stewardship short of government, a government that basically has inherited some strong economic policies but really has not done a whole lot to create new economic policies or made the types of visionary changes that are necessary to lead Canadians proudly and prosperously into the next century.

Right now, when the challenges are so great, we need the type of government that would engage Canadians in the kind of dialogue and the type of visionary public policy creation that would produce in the long term the types of policies that will attach the hands of Canadians to the opportunities of the 21st century. Tax reform is a very important part of that. Arguably, tax reform, particularly in the early 21st century, will be very important as an economic development tool. We are seeing that around the world, whether it is in countries like Ireland which have very aggressive corporate tax strategies, the tax policies that we are seeing in the U.S., for instance, or within our own country. We are seeing provinces jockeying for position to reduce provincial taxes in order to attract industry and create increased levels of job growth and prosperity within the province.

Tax reform is going to become more and more important. In this environment it is going to take more than tinkering around the periphery of taxes. It is going to take a significant, mature and holistic approach to what are systemic problems.

This government's approach to taxation policy is anaemic. The government has refused to deal with some of the root difficulties and some of the distortions we have within the tax system.

There are some individual elements of Bill C-72 and some individual initiatives that are difficult to disagree with in terms of their general direction. For instance, the increase in the personal tax credit of $500 is positive. We agree with the general trend to increase the personal tax credit. The PC party is calling for an increase, not just to $7,000, but to $10,000. It is unconscionable that in Canada we are taxing people who make as little as $7,000 per year. We believe that the personal credit should be raised to $10,000.

The government is saying that by increasing the personal credit by $500 it is taking 400,000 Canadians off the tax rolls. What the government fails to mention is that since 1993, due to bracket creep, this government has actually dragged 1.4 million low income Canadians, kicking and screaming, on to the tax rolls for the first time. It is hardly fair for the government to say that it is taking people off the tax rolls when in fact it is putting more people on the tax rolls, and bracket creep continues to cost Canadians a lot. We are calling for the elimination of bracket creep and the re-indexing of tax brackets, particularly in the post-deficit environment.

We saw the reduction of the 3% surtax, which was a deficit reduction surtax. Seeing that it has played a role in reducing and ultimately eliminating the deficit, we would call for the government to eliminate the 3% surtax, which has been the trend, but also to eliminate the 5% surtax. The government is calling it the high income surtax. That is one of the issues we have from a competitiveness perspective because the government treats people making over $60,000 as though they were rich.

In Canada the highest marginal tax rate is hit at around $60,000. In the U.S. the highest marginal tax rate is not reached until the individual hits a threshold of about $412,000 Canadian.

Last week in Maclean's magazine there was an interesting survey of opportunities for freshly minted graduates in Canada. The average salary for a freshly minted graduate with a bachelor degree in commerce, according to Maclean's , who is entering the financial services sector in investment banking, is $72,000. In the first year out of university these bachelor of commerce graduates, or business administration graduates, are making $72,000. Immediately, in the first year out of school, with student loans and everything else, the government is taxing them at the highest marginal tax rate.

It is little wonder that we are chasing from Canada some of our best and brightest young people who are seeking opportunities, particularly south of the border, in what is frequently referred to as the brain drain.

The government sometimes says that it is not really a personal income tax issue, that that is not the biggest reason; the fact is that U.S. companies are also paying more money. The fact that U.S. companies are paying higher salaries is partially due to the fact that U.S. companies are paying lower percentages in corporate tax rates. The general compensation trends have been toward salaries combined with stock options. In that type of environment our capital gains tax plays a significant role in reducing incentives for Canadians to stay here. This is particularly pervasive within the high tech sector.

If we are to be competitive in the 21st century it is particularly important that we be competitive in the high tech sector and that we be competitive in the service sector as opposed to simply focusing on the traditional manufacturing and resource based sectors.

The challenges and the opportunities we have now are very exciting. In the post-deficit environment tax reform is a very viable and, I would argue, important initiative that the government should be pursuing more aggressively; not just tinkering with, but offering significant broad-based reform.

In a pre-deficit environment, without a fiscal surplus, tax reform is more difficult because whenever there is tax reform the government stands the risk of creating winners and of course losers. It is dealing with a zero sum issue. It is not possible to give more to one group without taking more from another.

However, in a post-deficit environment it is possible to implement significant, important and innovative tax reform without hurting any group within society. Tax relief can play an integral role in tax reform. When one group is provided with more through a simplification of the tax code, it need not mean that another group receives less. The surplus environment provides an opportunity for ameliorative tax relief that would compensate for any detrimental effects of tax reform.

Canadian workers and taxpayers have played a significant role in the elimination of the deficit. As I said earlier, it took 14 years from 1984 to 1998 to accomplish that. Canadian taxpayers have seen an increase from 1993 to 1998 from $112 billion in federal taxes to about $150 billion in federal taxes, a growth in federal taxes that far outstripped the growth in the economy.

According to Douglas Porter, senior economist and vice-president of Nesbitt Burns who was a witness before the finance committee last week, disposable income has fallen significantly in Canada primarily due to the high tax burden, particularly relative to the U.S. The fact is that in the U.S. over the past few years there has been a significant increase in personal disposable income and during the same period there has been a decrease in Canada.

Personal debt rates are at an unprecedented high in Canada. Personal bankruptcy rates are higher than they have ever been. The government may boast of being in the black, but the fact is that because of the government's high tax policies Canadians are in the red at an unprecedented rate.

During the seventies and eighties Canadian disposable income was around 80% of the U.S. level. By the end of 1998 Canadian disposable income had fallen to 50% of the U.S. level. Part of that as well is related to the lower dollar in Canada and that whenever our dollar is weakened it represents to a considerable extent a pay cut for Canadians in the global environment in terms of what we can consume. It is a corporate tax issue. It is a personal tax issue. It is a productivity issue.

Interestingly on the productivity question, which we have been studying in the finance committee, most witnesses indicated that high taxes in Canada had played a role. Some said it was a very significant role. Some said it was a smaller role. Almost all the witnesses attributed, at least in part, our low productivity growth in Canada to our high tax regime and the secular decline in productivity over the past 30 years to taxes which are simply too high and make us uncompetitive.

Another issue that comes up frequently at the finance committee productivity hearings is investment. In jurisdictions where investment is high, typically productivity is higher. The Canadian government tendency to tax capital and income on capital reduces incentives to invest. When one reduces investment one ultimately reduces productivity.

Certainly members on the government side would like to debate the whole notion of productivity and spend a lot of time trying to define productivity in a rather esoteric or arcane intellectual argument. The government does not seem to realize that productivity is one of the greatest challenges facing Canadians in the 21st century in terms of our ability to build wealth in Canada.

There is a huge number of factors. Tax policy is very important. Social policy can play a role in terms of innovative social policy. While the government claims that innovative or forward thinking tax policy or tax reduction cannot coexist with innovative social policy, the fact is that the government is wrong on that.

One witness before the finance committee was Dr. Fraser Mustard who has done an immense amount of work on innovative social policy and on investing in young people and children, particularly in preschool, and what is known as head start programs or early intervention programs aimed at children in high risk situations. Many of these studies have been done in inner city communities where the need was greatest, but they would apply almost anywhere.

One dollar invested in preschool children in high risk situations would provide a societal benefit of about $7 by the time the child reached the age of 25. It is a very innovative social policy aimed at those first three years of early childhood development, the first three years of a child's life during which 90% of the child's cognitive adaptive skills close off.

That is the one area where we do not have any real government policy. We have a post-secondary education policy which is primarily provincial but with some federal co-operation through things like the millennium scholarship program. We have a secondary and primary education system.

We have absolutely not strategy for the area during which we can have the most significant and positive impact on the lives of our young people and on the future competitiveness of our country through augmenting our human capital for those first three years.

The government will argue that we cannot have tax reduction, tax reform and innovative social policy. That is not true. This is a government that cannot walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. The fact is that we can have both.

We spend more on health care in Canada than the U.S. government does on a per capita basis. I would argue that the U.S. health care system is very inefficient due to the lack of a single tier system, the insurance industry and the litigious nature of U.S. society. By the same token, the U.S. spends more on health care than we do in Canada on a per capita basis and has a defence budget that is mammoth on a per capita basis relative to ours.

We can actually have the type of tax reform Canadians need, the type of social policy reform Canadians need, but it will take vision, leadership, courage, a depth of knowledge of global issues which Canadians have not had since the previous government, and innovative policies like free trade, reducing or eliminating the manufacturers sales tax, and deregulation of financial services, transportation and energy.

Unfortunately it seems that Canadians will have to wait until after the government has left office before they get the meaningful broad based tax reform they need to compete and succeed in a global environment.

Taxation May 5th, 1999

Mr. Speaker, this is the same trade minister who when he was in opposition was one of the most vocal opponents of the free trade agreement.

The gap in taxes between Canada and the U.S. is growing almost as wide as the split in cabinet. The gap in taxes between Canada and the U.S. continues to hinder growth in Canada.

Canadians are united. Despite the split in cabinet, Canadians are united in their belief that we need lower taxes. The Canadian Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the industry minister and the trade minister all know that taxes need to go down in Canada for growth to go up.

Will the Prime Minister listen to the experts, listen to Canadians, listen to his own colleagues and lower taxes to keep industry leaders like Nortel here in Canada?

Taxation May 5th, 1999

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is saying no to tax cuts. The industry minister is saying yes to tax cuts. The finance minister is saying “Maybe we should cut taxes, maybe we should not”. Yesterday the trade minister told us that, yes, Canada needs lower taxes. So much for cabinet solidarity.

If entrepreneurs are having difficulty building their businesses in Canada because of high taxes, as the trade minister said yesterday, what taxes would he cut first to make sure that Canadian entrepreneurs can prosper here in Canada?