Transport committee  I would think anything that is tried by Transport Canada would help, would go a long way in making sure that the system is perfected even further. To just stand back and maybe audit the paperwork isn't doing any justice to the system. You need to get to the bottom and you need to get the players, those who do the hands-on work and those who are handling the SMS complaints, to work together and understand the theory of SMS and what we're trying to achieve.

Transport committee  That's a tough one, because even when we were talking about the area where we found a lot of this feedback, these technicians were not willing to come forward and identify themselves to us. They identified themselves to our local reps, but they didn't want to notify themselves and have their names known to the headquarters of the union.

Transport committee  I would have to agree with what Jonathan stated. We find that sometimes people change in their departments, and they need to be reminded of that culture because they are new to the system, and there needs to be a way you can measure whether those using the system feel comfortable using it or reporting situations.

Transport committee  Unfortunately, there are one or two of those questions I won't be able to answer, namely as to whether the Transport Canada inspectors are competent or not. My understanding is that it is done randomly, and many times it is done at the request of one of the parties, who asks for Transport Canada to intervene.

Transport committee  Thank you. I will cut my introduction a little short. My name is Carlos DaCosta, responsible for transportation across Canada. The IAM is the largest union in the air transport sector in both Canada and North America. We represent over 50,000 members in Canada, 20,000 of whom work in the aviation, aerospace, and air transport sector.

Transport committee  I understand the system as a former mechanic. Obviously you don't see it the way I do.

Transport committee  I think I clarified the answer when I was asked a question by Mr. Laframboise. There isn't anything within these incidents that would cause something to fall out of the sky. But it is a problem within the system. If I had a choice between SMS and the old system, I would take the old system any day.

Transport committee  If you play back the tapes, you will never hear me saying it was never safe to fly. I'll repeat my answer again. The incidents weren't big enough to cause an incident in the middle of the sky. But they are symptomatic problems of a process that's failing. And you could have a situation--if you understand human factors--when one mistake is made and another person takes over the job and he makes another mistake.

Transport committee  No, I fly all these airlines. But I trust that the system they have will catch it. What I'm trying to do here is alert the committee. I tell you what, I don't want to be on this committee, because you have a tough decision to make.

Transport committee  That's what's taking place. The inspectors are no longer there, and when you have a situation take place and you come forward to identify it, you're told to file a report with the SMS process. And there it disappears, because it is investigated by a manager of quality control--a manager.

Transport committee  I'm not so sure it's escalating out of control, but what I see is that it's starting to grow. What the mechanics are telling me is that it's getting worse by the day, by the week. There's no longer that atmosphere that was present in the past. It is a new way of doing business, and it's strictly about business.

Transport committee  In the incidents I brought forward, clearly the operations mode took over. You can only assume by what took place that the manager was more interested in getting the airplane out on time and in trying to reduce the headaches associated with it: the cost of putting up passengers in hotels, giving them meals and whatever, and having to face additional paperwork.

Transport committee  I think you missed the point in my bringing up these examples. I continue to fly. Is there a danger of an airliner falling out of the skies, such as the one I'm talking about? No, there isn't. These incidents weren't big enough to cause anything to happen in mid-air. What they show is a symptom of a problem, and it is starting to grow.

Transport committee  If you were to ask me whether or not I believe SMS is a good process, I'd have to say yes and no. If you take out the human element, it's probably a good process. If you introduce a human element, we're all going to take shortcuts. We all have vested interests. If I'm a manager under pressure and I'm looking to perform and look good, I'm going to take what I think is a reasonable shortcut in order to get the airplane out on time, not understanding what someone's going through as a mechanic in doing his job and what someone else is going through as the other person who's supporting him.

Transport committee  There are too many conflicting and competing interests, and there are too many humans involved in the process. It is therefore bound to fail. I've seen some of the examples already, such as the ones I have listed, and I'm sure there are more. I've gathered these in just the last two or three weeks, and there are more out there.