Transport committee  No, you're dealing in black and white. We're dealing in bureaucratic grey areas here, and I'm saying you've got to understand that this system has so many fault lines that it's not a matter of being opposed to it or not. You have to look at why it has so many deficiencies and problems that it's time to call a halt and start anew.

Transport committee  It's not a trick question, I agree, and I do object to it. It's an alphabet of the wrong order. It's optics or lack of them. Really, it's disgusting. Since 1998, Transport Canada has been pretending they had the legislative authority to just willy-nilly go ahead and set forward a whole new philosophy that has not got much substance to it; when you knock out some of the underpinnings of the regulatory side and when you have tried it before and it's failed, you have to ask yourself why it has failed.

Transport committee  Yes, it is. I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding, because you have to really understand what clause 43 of Bill C-6 means. You have to turn back to section 24 of the Access to Information Act. What you have in the Access to Information Act are the principles of the act; then people can apply, and there's a set of exemptions, sections 12 to 26.

Transport committee  I remember I did cross-examine one of the previous Transport Canada officials on that subject. So this is not something new. I certainly agree that by way of prevention, the relationship with the airline industry, to try to prevent and educate so that accidents don't happen and best practices are done, is important, but so are regulatory indicators and enforcement of them.

Transport committee  Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. As a public interest researcher and frequent access user, I've spent 25 years battling to get various air safety reports made public, including going all the way to the court of appeal. My concern is that air safety public reporting is being ambushed and essentially eliminated under Bill C-6.

Information & Ethics committee  Yes, I think the mindset is such that we're operating under a very limited framework—and it has to be changed. And so when you're looking at the system, you have to say, how will the access to information coordinators fit into this new system under new guidelines; how will the Information Commissioner fit in with binding powers; how will we implement these penalties and offences?

Information & Ethics committee  If someone wants further information than what I've said, I'll give it to them, but it's very hard to get the documentation.

Information & Ethics committee  I have some.

Information & Ethics committee  If it's the will of the committee—

Information & Ethics committee  I asked at the beginning of the hearing if I could table some of the documents I have.

Information & Ethics committee  Doesn't that require...?

Information & Ethics committee  Mr. Kenny, don't punish us if we don't have particular names.

Information & Ethics committee  Your motion opened a Pandora's box, because what's perfectly legal and, as some witnesses have said, has perfectly good guidelines may be wrong, and that's what I and others have been testifying to.

Information & Ethics committee  I have already in my testimony suggested some examples, yes.

Information & Ethics committee  He's going to read it in the papers, or different groups will use it in certain ways. I don't think it's that relevant that he know—