Government Operations committee  I could answer that by saying there is an article I wrote in The Hill Times today that gives a long answer to that, and people should perhaps read it. However, no, I don't think it was necessary. I think the priority is to put in place the recommendations that are already made, and then there is going to be lots more room for improvement after that.

Government Operations committee  I don't see any purpose in the task force until these other steps have been taken. Once you have a baseline in place of what's already been recommended, then I think there will be plenty of room for further discussion, because we still will be far from internationally respected best practices.

Government Operations committee  I think it doesn't really matter what this task force does as long as this doesn't impede the urgent implementation of what's already been recommended.

Government Operations committee  I don't know what the task force will come up to, because it's starting from a fairly low base in terms of knowledge and experience, I think. There's an awful lot of work to catch up on, the work that this committee did. It would take them months to complete the work that's already been done.

Government Operations committee  The law needs to be reformed. The Treasury Board must start conducting proper oversight of the departmental processes, which is its responsibility. Yes, those are the main things.

Government Operations committee  Thank you. My name's David Hutton and I'm a senior fellow with the Centre for Free Expression at Toronto Metropolitan University. I offered myself as a witness because I felt that my particular experience might enable me to offer a useful perspective. As a young engineer, I led the quality assurance of large, complex computer systems by monitoring the development process, conducting independent testing and approving a final release.

Government Operations committee  I support what David has said. Basically, senior people have enormous power and in this system there's absolutely nothing to impinge on or affect that in any way.

Government Operations committee  I'll respond initially. If you look at the countries that have done the best job, their whistle-blower legislation is sector-blind. In other words, it doesn't matter where you are and whom you've worked for, the same kinds of rules apply. That's the most effective way. The problem getting there is that you may get significant push-back from powerful corporations who are doing nasty things.

Government Operations committee  Let me add one other thought. One of the problems with the investigative process that the Integrity Commissioner uses is that a lot of it is contracted out. We've had situations where an investigation under way was being done very well.... It was the Don Garrett case, in which it looked as if the investigator was going to get to the heart of things and then everything went quiet.

Government Operations committee  —was that the investigator's contract had been allowed to lapse, so she was no longer involved. She didn't even know that had happened. In my mind, they sabotaged their own investigation. Then someone else was brought in who wrapped everything up in a few days.

Government Operations committee  Absolutely. By the way, I didn't just cook this up myself; I've had a lot of consultation with colleagues. I think the important thing is to get a variety of perspectives, mostly from outside of the people who are running the system. There are four categories. I suggest you call at least one witness from each.

Government Operations committee  Yes. The challenge is to select the most suitable witnesses. The third category would be other whistle-blowers, because this system covers only a tiny proportion of our workforce in Canada. It's only federal government public servants. Very similar stuff goes on in the private sector.

Government Operations committee  It's the—

Government Operations committee  Right. Exactly. Now, I knew in 2013 that Phoenix was a disaster. I'm not going into why it.... A lot of people in this town knew. No one came forward and nothing was done. If we had additional whistle-blower laws in place, many whistle-blowers would have come forward, not just one or two.

Government Operations committee  Yes. They would have gone to the—