Canadian Heritage Committee on Dec. 13th, 2006

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Merci.

Mr. Rollason.

[Kevin Rollason]

As an individual, because it was a charter challenge, we were just referred to a person who specializes in charter challenges. I have absolutely no idea.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you.

The reason I ask the question is that in defending the cuts, the Prime Minister used, as one of the reasons, that the government didn't want to be funding Liberal lawyers. I wanted to know whether or not that was a consideration for the people who had received funding. So thank you for your answer.

Mr. Rollason, on Monday we heard four witnesses who had supported the cancellation of the court challenges program and maintained that if there is a challenge to be made, it should be funded by the community or by the groups themselves. Would that be a reasonable proposition in your case, sir?

[Kevin Rollason]

Coming from a standpoint of disability, we're members of several disability organizations in Winnipeg and Manitoba. None of these groups that we're part of could in any way, shape, or form hire a lawyer for us and take on a challenge like this. They barely have enough money for programs they themselves run. To have a legal challenge is above and beyond what they could possibly afford.

It's the same for us as an individual family. There is no way we could have afforded something like that.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Madam Tie.

[Chantal Tie]

Yes, that is absolutely the case. One of the unifying and defining features of many forms of disadvantage is poverty. That's what defines it in our society: people who are marginalized and don't have access to resources, power, and political power are defined by poverty. That's very true of most of the disadvantaged groups.

Most of the lawyers we have actually act pro bono, because even with the court challenges program money, it's not enough.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you.

[Louise Aucoin]

Generally speaking, it would be extremely difficult for minority groups or francophones living in a minority setting to fund something similar.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Ms. Aucoin, earlier you raised a very interesting point. You said that if the program is to be cancelled, we should also look into reforming the corporate tax system, which allows for corporations to deduct legal costs from their revenues.

Are non-profit associations able to issue tax receipts in order to pay for legal fees?

[Louise Aucoin]

No, this is not possible.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Monsieur Malo.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The definition of equality you provided earlier is very interesting. I would like you to elaborate further on this. Are you able to define and lay the foundations of what justice is?

[Chantal Tie]

What's justice? I'd say justice is a very broad concept, but in this case access to justice is what's most important; when you deny people access to the courts, you have no access to justice, even though we may have a Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Justice includes, in this country, charter rights: freedom from discrimination, equality rights, and section 7 rights on security of the person. Justice is a very important part of this, and it's the ability to both defend against injustice and to assert positive rights.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Ms. Aucoin, earlier you said that some groups are already encountering serious problems in defending their rights.

Can you tell us which cases now risk not being heard before the courts and which may cause great harm to individuals?

[Louise Aucoin]

I talked about the Paulin case which will somewhat define the RCMP's role in Canada. The RCMP has detachments throughout all provinces except for Ontario and Quebec.

The Paulin case deals with the RCMP presence in New Brunswick, but since New Brunswick is the only officially bilingual province where language rights are entrenched in the Constitution, it is an entirely different story for the other provinces. Therefore, it is extremely important that the other provinces go before the Supreme Court. There are probably many cases. There's also the ongoing—

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

What will happen if the Paulin case is not concluded?

[Louise Aucoin]

Rights vary from one province to another. When we think in terms of a unified Canada, it is not a good thing to be well served in one province and not well served in another, particularly when it comes to as powerful a system as a police service.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Do you believe that the Court Challenges Program weakens the powers of law-makers to the benefit of the legal system?

[Louise Aucoin]

No.

[Chantal Tie]

We have a democratic government. We believe in democracy, but our democracy is a democracy that includes majority rule with protection for minority rights. The role of the court is the protection of minority rights within majority rule. That's the court's role; that's what the Constitution says. The court challenges program hasn't invented that. The court challenges program merely provides the means for the protection of minority rights. That's the role; the court challenges program didn't invent it.

[Louise Aucoin]

A friend once told me that having access to the courts is what it truly comes down to. The courts must be accessible if we want important rights to be respected.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the Court Challenges Program fosters democracy.

[Chantal Tie]

Absolutely.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, ladies.