Evidence of meeting #47 for Canadian Heritage in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbc.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Judith Flynn  Chair, Manitoba Arts Council
Douglas Riske  Executive Director, Manitoba Arts Council
Dave McLeod  Executive Director, Native Communications Incorporated
Sharon Bajer  President, ACTRA (Manitoba)
Claude Dorge  Secretary, ACTRA (Manitoba)
Rob Macklin  Branch Representative, ACTRA (Manitoba)
Rea Kavanagh  Vice-President, ACTRA (Manitoba)

9:55 a.m.

Executive Director, Manitoba Arts Council

Douglas Riske

I guess I can only say maybe that's part of the formula that in some way has to be analyzed. Again, the public value is obviously in hockey as a cultural icon of Canada. The thrill of being there last night or even a couple of nights ago--I mean, you can't get away from that, and the emotional connection. But on the other hand, commercially hockey has become very different. I think we're going to have, what, one team in the playoffs that actually has a dominant number of Canadian players--the Anaheim Ducks or something--so cheering on Anaheim.... But I think the CBC's role in that might be diminished in some way, or depending again on the revenue generation, is it crucial and can it be replaced?

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you.

I have a question. I love it when, as chair, I get an opportunity to ask a question or two.

Stratford, Ontario, happens to be in my riding, so when it comes to the arts, I do know a little bit about the arts. I know that the Stratford Festival has become quite a school, as time has gone on, to teach and train not only new actors and actresses but also technicians, whether it be for lighting or various other areas, to hone their skills.

You mentioned earlier that the CBC should be a teacher. Do you think it is really the mandate of a public broadcaster to be teaching? I know that right here in Winnipeg there are art schools, so some of those things are already being looked after. Again, the Canada Council for the Arts does help out the Stratford Festival and has over the years recognized the quality and the work that has been done there in production.

So do you think it is really the role of the CBC to be a teacher?

9:55 a.m.

Executive Director, Manitoba Arts Council

Douglas Riske

Again, just mirroring our evaluation, and to some extent Canada Council's evaluation, of organizations, it's not necessarily a teaching function, but arts education or education about the art form or education simply about the cultural industries is part of every organization's job. They determine how in-depth that is and whether they develop special programs. We've created incentives in some cases for organizations such as theatre companies to have arts education programs. It's an investment in your future audiences; if you deny that, they will not be there. Whether that's children's programming, or educational programming that's very specific, or entertainment programming, it's about building audiences and building awareness. So I think that function is really important, and I know Stratford has taken that on.

It's not only children's education, it's adult education, because there's such a gap sometimes that maybe the CBC has to figure that out. There are interesting new ways--and we see it happening already on CBC and other private stations--of connecting to the Internet and engaging people in very different ways in what is essentially a television drama, or a television sitcom, or whatever it may be. There are ways of connecting with audiences that help build their understanding as well as their entertainment factor, or whatever it may be called, in terms of their ratings.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

There is one other thing. I drive back and forth to Ottawa, and the six-hour drive gives me an opportunity to listen to various things on the radio. One channel that I do have on--I have XM radio; it happened to come with my car. It has old radio programs. I know a lot of them are Amos 'n Andy; they were mainly American programs. But with a lot of those old programs...if there was a movie, they would also do a radio show. That movie would be put on the radio and they would talk it out.

I know we have a lot of visual stuff now in our movies, and I guess that wouldn't show on radio. But what happened to radio drama, whether it be a world-class movie, an Oscar-winning movie...? Could there not be something put across radio? Maybe we could start that industry back up again in Canada.

10 a.m.

Chair, Manitoba Arts Council

Judith Flynn

I don't think you'd do it through playing old films. What you need to do is invest in more drama. That means investing in more actors.

As for your question about teaching, I think all television teaches. The question is, what does it teach?

10 a.m.

Executive Director, Manitoba Arts Council

Douglas Riske

Just to add to the radio drama issue, I think there's a significant amount of radio drama still being produced, but we certainly have gone away from the type of radio drama you're talking about.

What we do now--and we do it extremely well, thanks to CBC--are the adaptations of Canadian novels and short stories. They're incredibly well done. Never mind just the simple reading of some of those novels on the radio...they're very engaging. Actually, you'll find that people are hooked on them. They have to listen at 10:15 every night because another section of a novel is being read. It's incredibly engaging. Then they hopefully go out and buy the tape and listen to it as they drive to Ottawa.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Great. Thank you.

I'll just ask around the table if there is anyone who has any short questions.

Okay. Thank you very much for attending this morning.

10 a.m.

Chair, Manitoba Arts Council

Judith Flynn

Thank you very much.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

We'll have a five-minute recess.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Good morning, and welcome, Mr. McLeod. We're very pleased that you are here.

Perhaps you'd like to go ahead with your presentation, sir.

10:25 a.m.

Dave McLeod Executive Director, Native Communications Incorporated

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Honourable members of the committee, thank you for this opportunity to make a presentation before you today. My name is David McLeod. I am the executive director of Native Communications Incorporated, also known as NCI-FM. We operate a province-wide radio network that reaches 97% of Manitoba with 57 radio transmitters located from Winnipeg all the way to Churchill. Our provincial reach equals that of CBC radio here in Manitoba. We've also been approved for a new site location in Kenora, which we hope to have up this summer.

NCI-FM is a non-profit broadcaster. We generate 80% of our total budget with advertising and fundraising efforts such as radio bingo. Twenty percent of our budget is received from the northern native broadcast access program, otherwise known as NNBAP, which is administered by the Department of Canadian Heritage. This program provides funding for the production and distribution of aboriginal radio and television programming. We are one of 13 regional aboriginal communications societies that are currently a part of the NNBAP program. NNBAP serves status and non-status first nations, Inuit, and Métis peoples in all regions of Canada.

I'm here today to share some thoughts on CBC from an aboriginal broadcaster perspective. In order to achieve a comprehensive understanding of my recommendations to the committee, I will need to take a few minutes to give an overview of the scope of aboriginal broadcasting in Canada today.

Firstly, since the mid-1980s the 13 NNBAP members have successfully grown to serve an estimated radio audience that exceeds 800,000 listeners each week. This audience also includes many non-aboriginal listeners. Seven of our members also produce television programming, which is primarily broadcast on the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network--APTN. According to BBM numbers, APTN has an average weekly reach of nearly three million Canadians, with peaks of almost four million viewers. Collectively, NNBAP members provide a unique public service that is greatly needed. We inform, we entertain, and provide a vital link and invaluable lifeline, particularly for northern and remote communities, where mainstream newspapers, for example, still arrive a day or two late.

We also offer a unique style of journalism, music, entertainment, and cultural content. We serve as the story keepers: archivists in gathering and preserving historic documents, photos, audio recordings, film, and video that will be passed on to the next generation of aboriginal broadcasters. Our 13 societies also serve a critical role in preserving and promoting aboriginal languages. In a sense, we serve as the life raft to over 5,000 communities and urban centres where native languages can only be heard through radio or on television via APTN.

What we accomplish is really quite amazing: 40,000 hours of aboriginal-language radio a year and 100 hours of aboriginal-language television. I will note that some members of the aboriginal communication societies provide this service on a daily basis with extreme challenges that include the high cost of living in the north, high transportation costs, and remoteness.

Like many of our colleagues, we at NCI-FM have ventured to serve listeners in regions of Manitoba where many commercial broadcasters simply will not go. Our profits have given NCI the ability to grow and make decisions in our operations and in our programming futures. Moneys are allocated where they're needed to ensure that we can remain relevant to the people we serve. We know we're on the right track, as an independent research study commissioned by the Province of Manitoba in 2005 found that 67% of first nations people outside of Winnipeg listen to NCI-FM. Those numbers are unheard of in the commercial broadcasting world.

CBC must know that the aboriginal population is quickly growing in Manitoba. In Winnipeg alone, the population is expected to be 150,000 aboriginal people by 2015. We have witnessed the effects of population growth first-hand. Our NCI Jam talent show, which features 25 amateur singers with a professional back-up band, began with 175 people attending the first event in 1987. Today we sell out the Centennial Concert Hall, with 2,300 seats sold and 300 people outside wishing they had made it in. We also saw the inaugural Manito Ahbee Festival and pow-wow draw 25,000 people into the MTS Centre last November. This event brought a whopping $2.3 million into the Winnipeg economy in one weekend. Last year we created the Western Association of Aboriginal Broadcasters, also known as WAAB, with three of our sister networks, those being CFNR B.C., the Aboriginal Multi-Media Society in Alberta, and Missinipi Broadcasting Corporation in Saskatchewan. We have successfully worked together on several projects, which include a national aboriginal top 30. This is essential to the ever-growing aboriginal music industry. We also broadcast the Aboriginal Peoples Choice Music Awards. We broadcast them live across western Canada, with 225 transmitters all across the west.

We are at a point in our history where partnerships play an important role. In terms of APTN, partnerships have been established with CTV, CHUM, and Rogers Cable Incorporated. Last September NCI co-produced a radio game show with CBC Manitoba entitled Neech for the Top--yes, Neech for the Top. The new aboriginal word game show debuted at the Indian and Métis Friendship Centre and was an instant hit. CBC aired a segment of this show, and NCI gained two half-hour radio programs. Our Cree and Ojibway listeners were so enthusiastic about the language game show that we are currently in discussion with APTN and local producers to create a six-part TV series based on this concept.

The seeds for aboriginal programming can truly grow. An idea that became a radio segment on CBC in partnership with an aboriginal broadcaster became two half-hour radio programs and will now grow into six television shows.

I share these experiences to emphasize that over the last 20 years, in spite of funding cutbacks, our 13 societies have proven themselves to be both relevant and successful and have far exceeded the original intent or expectations of the northern native broadcast access program. It must be noted that compared to the $1 billion that CBC receives in funding, the 13 societies receive a combined funding of only $7.9 million to accomplish all of these objectives.

I would like to now submit several key recommendations.

First, Canada's Broadcasting Act must be updated to reflect aboriginal people.

I strongly agree with the results of a 2000 study of the national aboriginal broadcast program by Canadian Heritage that says that as aboriginal broadcasters we play a crucial role in our regions and in the communities we serve. We deserve to be recognized as an integral part of the Canadian broadcast system. I believe we provide a service similar to that of CBC, and that the broadcast industry underestimates the value of our contribution to both aboriginal and mainstream Canadian culture and society.

Currently we lack the statutory protection and recognition provided to the CBC within the Broadcasting Act. We are mentioned within the Broadcasting Act, but in a fashion that could be considered nothing more than a few words of common courtesy. We are not accorded the same protection as the CBC is granted. I believe we have proven to Canada, and certainly to our audience, that we offer a unique and specific public service that represents a segment of the Canadian population that is often marginalized or underserved.

The Broadcasting Act was last changed in 1991. It is time for the Broadcasting Act to receive a facelift that ultimately will be inclusive of Canada's fastest-growing population and the cultural diversity that is quickly becoming a reality in all regions of Canada.

Recommendation two is regional CBC round tables with aboriginal radio broadcasters.

Over the last year, we have worked on several special projects with CBC Radio Manitoba that have been successful. This has been a first step. What else can be achieved in working together with NNBAP members nationally? Why not share our expertise and come together to discuss possible partnerships? It's imperative that we form partnerships, as I predict that within the next two years our rural audience will outnumber CBC's here in Manitoba. Forming a relationship certainly speaks to the heart of CBC's mandate. The CBC network must not only accept such a role, but embrace it; the CBC must not only provide sporadic partnerships in order to claim to have met its mandate, but must act decisively and broadly deliver on its mandate of serving an inclusive audience.

Number three is about a national CBC program to bridge the gap between aboriginal and non-aboriginal people.

The Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples final report was released in 1996 and noted that an influential program, Our Native Land, was a weekly CBC radio program that was cancelled in the 1980s when the CBC reinforced regional radio programming. The commission also noted that aboriginal programming has since occurred only on an ad hoc basis. In the royal commission's official recommendations, it was noted that the aboriginal voice will only be heard if it is included as a regular part of the Canadian media landscape.

In 1999 I had the opportunity to talk with the late Bernelda Wheeler, who gained national recognition as the host, producer, and investigative documentary journalist of Our Native Land. She is referred to as the first lady of native broadcasting. Bernelda was very humble about her work but acknowledged that she was part of a journalism movement that achieved a better understanding of who native people are in mainstream Canada. Today this program concept is greatly needed in Canada to bring Canadians together, to hear the issues, to question aboriginal issues, and to gain a better understanding of aboriginal issues as a whole. The spirit of her legacy should continue on CBC radio with a weekly one-hour radio program. I would also recommend that an aboriginal producer oversee the program or be given the opportunity to be mentored in the capacity as a producer.

Number four is about re-examining the NNBAP recommendation study.

In this last point I would like to call on Canadian Heritage to re-examine the results of a 2000 study that outlined an analysis of northern native broadcast access program recommendations and concerns in eight key areas. I believe there are several important components that must be reviewed, which include funding toward the archiving of materials. We must ensure that the last 20 years of radio and television programming will be available for future generations of people seeking materials like traditional legends and news archives, etc.

Also, the equipment study conducted by Alex MacGregor for NNBAP identified replacement and upgrading of equipment as being urgently needed, particularly for members north of 60.

In closing, if these suggestions are realized and acted upon, I am confident that CBC can meet the challenge of serving all Canadians, including aboriginal people.

Honourable members of the committee, I respectfully submit that CBC is not the only public broadcaster making a difference. Aboriginal broadcasters must be considered in your overview of national media in Canada. I have faith and confidence in this process and believe that there will be far-reaching outcomes based on your final decisions.

I appreciate this opportunity to appear before you today and would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you, Mr. McLeod.

We will turn now to Ms. Keeper.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod, for presenting here today. I'm very grateful that you're here. NCI has been a part of my life, and here in Manitoba, as you mentioned, it has a long history. Not only that, but as an artist I was part of the emergence of the arts community and the development of APTN as well.

NCI and APTN have been part of my cultural life. One of the things I was thinking about in terms of the mandate review was that if CBC had met its mandate in terms of the aboriginal community in Canada, there wouldn't have been an APTN or an NCI; there's a particular role that NCI and APTN have provided.

I'd like you to talk a bit more about what that role is specifically and how CBC maybe hasn't met that part of its mandate. You mentioned the Broadcasting Act. I'd like you to talk more about how the Broadcasting Act maybe hasn't been clear enough in terms of what role public broadcasting should play in reflecting the aboriginal community.

10:40 a.m.

Executive Director, Native Communications Incorporated

Dave McLeod

First of all, when you look at the aboriginal broadcasting industry, it's a very young industry. It's about 20 years old. When you think about what's been accomplished over that short period, it's incredible.

I think what we have, as aboriginal broadcasters, is a real special connection to our listeners. The former chief of Tadoule Lake, Ila Bussidor, was visiting Winnipeg, and I remember she said, “I love coming to Winnipeg and listening to NCI because it reminds me of home.” What other station could accomplish...? Because we have such a connection to the aboriginal people, we're part of home. We're not just another radio station. We're not just playing music and filling in the blanks with commercials. We're connecting with people, and language is really a big part of that. We broadcast Cree and Ojibway languages.

In terms of the CBC, the number one point that separates us from CBC is having native languages. I think I made the point with the game show: where CBC could air a segment, we can air a half-hour show, as opposed to a segment.

Ultimately, there's that distance between CBC and the aboriginal audience throughout Manitoba. As I mentioned, we have 67% of the first nation audiences listening in Manitoba right now outside of Winnipeg. That's going to grow. We're under a lot of pressure, actually, as an aboriginal group, because the population is rising in the urban centres. When we first came to Winnipeg in 1999, we saw events happen once every three months. Then they were every month, and now they're happening every few weeks. As broadcasters, we're to cover these events, we're to provide service of these events, and we have to keep a revenue base rising to meet the challenge.

Let me tell you this: in terms of aboriginal languages, there's not a lot of money to be made. We're providing services to remote areas that otherwise would not get language radio, and we're doing that out of our own pockets. We're also providing employment opportunities for people with language who otherwise wouldn't have those.

I see it continually growing. In fact, we're at a point where in the future there will be a secondary aboriginal station needed just for the city of Winnipeg, I believe, and a network for the rest of the province. That's where things are going. And I know that because I'm at the front lines of everything happening.

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

Could I ask you another question? There are two things I want to ask you about.

You talked about Our Native Land, and for people within the aboriginal community, of course, Bernelda Wheeler, Eric Robinson, all of this--and especially in Manitoba, where, you're right, CBC did have this show.... In fact, in Thompson, in the CBC office, we have photographs of Eric Robinson, of Sylvia Grier. Bernelda Wheeler was integral, as well, in the region. That momentum just sort of fell off the table and there are no producers being mentored currently within the north.

10:40 a.m.

Executive Director, Native Communications Incorporated

Dave McLeod

Yes, that's been a real loss, I think, for the north, where CBC did play a role with Sylvia Grier. She did a Cree program in the morning and during the lunch hour, and it was well received in the north and it put a stamp of “CBC cares about the reality of the people in the north”. When that role was gone, there were questions: Well, what's NCI doing? Can NCI do more for us? Because CBC certainly isn't playing that role.

With a radio show, I don't think it's a native perspective speaking to non-aboriginal or mainstream Canada; I think it's a perspective where inclusiveness should come to the table. I think it should be a phone-in show. If there are major native issues going on in Canada, we need to hear all opinions and thoughts on those issues, and come to a conclusion at the end. That will promote a better understanding. It should be inclusive of all voices, but give the native voice an opportunity.

The difference between CBC and NCI is that our audience lives the issues, where CBC's audience hears the issues--and that's a real difference. We don't have to explain as much with our audience. We don't have to explain that there are third world conditions still in first nation communities here in Manitoba. People live those issues and they know what they're about, or they have family or they've come from a community or they have friends who are a part of that. So I think there's a real special connection that we have, and CBC should grasp some of that, if not all of that.

10:45 a.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

Can I ask a quick question about the partnership? You said a partnership must be embraced by CBC, and part of that would be to deliver on its mandate.

10:45 a.m.

Executive Director, Native Communications Incorporated

Dave McLeod

Yes. We've worked on a few projects with CBC Manitoba as an experiment, and they're seeing the light. When we did this game show, we had 200 people show up at the friendship centre. They were thrilled. That's something they don't have.

There is a distance between CBC and a direct connection to the aboriginal community. I think that needs to be fixed soon. I mean, we have a national broadcaster here who is mandated to represent the people of Canada. Aboriginal people play a big role, particularly in the urban centres here in Winnipeg and as the audience outside of Winnipeg. That is the audience outside of Winnipeg. So if you don't have native languages on your radio station.... That's why we're getting 67% of the listenership and CBC will continually lose listeners as time goes by and that population grows. That is the reality.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you very much for that.

Ms. Bourgeois.

10:45 a.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, I would like to make a comment, and then I would have a brief question.

Mr. McCloud, I am very happy that you are here this morning. At other hearings we have held, aboriginal persons came to tell us that they did indeed need a lot of services.

Personally, as a member of Parliament from Quebec, I am very sensitive to aboriginal claims. You have several common languages that allow you to communicate, as well as your own culture which has to be protected.

This week we received a document from a large bank—the TD Bank, not to mention any names—in which it was said that the way to enrich a country was to educate and train its population. I am aware of everything Canadian aboriginal people have gone through. I am familiar with your claims since the arrival of white people in Canada. And in light of that, I think that it is extremely important that you too have a right to this education and training that white people have access to.

That being said, you referred to the creation of partnerships with the CBC. I want to know honestly and frankly whether, since your radio and television stations have been on the air, you have asked the CBC to partner up with you. What was its reply? What happened in the aftermath? I don't want a political answer; I want to know what actually happened.

10:45 a.m.

Executive Director, Native Communications Incorporated

Dave McLeod

My high school French picked up some of that, but can somebody...? I didn't have my headset on.

10:50 a.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Should I repeat the question; must I start over?

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

You might have to ask it again, at least the question.

10:50 a.m.

Executive Director, Native Communications Incorporated

Dave McLeod

Excuse me. I wasn't aware I was to wear a headset.

10:50 a.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

I was saying that it is important to the wealth of a country that its citizens be educated and trained. Since I am familiar with your efforts to create openings for aboriginal people and to give them access to Canada's wealth, which it can share with you, I think it is important that you have your own radio and television stations. That way, you will be able to communicate with each other and to contribute.

That being said, I want you to reply to my question in the most honest and open way possible.

You referred to partnerships. Since the advent of your radio and television stations, first of all, did you ask the CBC to enter into partnerships with you? Secondly, what was its reaction? Thirdly, what were the subsequent results?