Canadian Heritage Committee on May 25th, 2007

[Raymond Legault]

I think it could even be broadened, that is to say refined even further in the details. Having regard to new technologies, there are ways of being even more representative. I think the new technologies can help target CBC/Radio-Canada's mandate even more.

We were talking about regional productions. I think there would be a way to improve it and for it to be an even more faithful reflection of all the various regions, the various communities in Canada. We don't have a lot of programs from the High North and the Inuit. Perhaps if there were productions, we could see what that reality is as well. Today's technological resources make it possible to do that much more easily and readily. I'm thinking of all there is right now on WebTV, which is a form of democratization. We could put that in the service... Perhaps it would be much easier for people to produce something that could eventually be made available and broadcast to Canada as a whole, of course, but could also enable each community to see itself reflected in its own television, under the big Radio-Canada umbrella.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Mr. Legault, in your brief, you talk about the apprehension over the review of CBC/Radio-Canada's mandate. Can you tell us more about that?

[Raymond Legault]

Good Lord! The issues are major right now. In fact, I think it's very much an economic issue. Everything is a matter of balance. What we are apprehensive about is that Radio-Canada's mandate has changed as a result of economic issues. I am more familiar with the Quebec situation.

General-interest television has of course lost viewers, even though the number of viewers is still large. Advertising revenues have declined and, in my opinion, will continue to do so. This isn't just a problem with general-interest television networks, it will also be a problem concerning specialty channels, because people increasingly have digital recorders and cut out commercials. People who do on-air advertising will increasingly opt for other media or other ways of doing advertising. So there is a risk that advertising revenues will decline, not only for general-interest television networks, but also for specialty channels, in favour of other media, perhaps more the Internet, hence the need for any broadcaster, whether public or private, to look as well to the Internet, to speciality channels, to ensure it has a multiple-stream revenue base.

In the circumstances, what we fear is that there is always a link. We've seen the turnaround at Radio-Canada. There used to be a lot less advertising time, choices were... Now a lot of choices are economically viable choices. By that I don't mean that a high-quality program doesn't necessarily have an audience, but sometimes there is a direct link. Programs, high-cost series have been cut because revenues were not sufficient. That's our fear. We fear that economic logic will put enormous pressure on Radio-Canada. Pressure has already been applied, at the Canadian Television Fund, among others, where it is considered unsatisfactory, in any case by the private broadcasters, that Radio-Canada can receive 37% of the Canadian Television Fund's budget. It is pressures of this kind that make us fear and dread that pressure will ultimately change CBC/Radio-Canada's mandate. That's our fear about that, and that's what we dread.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

And you hope that doesn't happen.

[Raymond Legault]

No, definitely not. We think that's important.

I'm going to add something else. In the conditions it sets for artists, particularly in its in-house productions, Radio-Canada is a leader, an example to follow. When production shifted from Radio-Canada to independent producers, for artists, actors, performers, that marked a very distinct decline in their working conditions in general. I don't know what the situation is for writers, but, for us, there was a very big difference relative to what existed before and with regard to quality, with regard to the time that we had to produce a television program when Radio-Canada did the production and broadcast the programs. That changed a great deal when we went toward independent production, where people wanted to make all that profitable.

I'm not sure of the cost that independent production represents in the equation relative to what existed before, because a lot of tax credits are granted for independent producers; a lot of money is invested in that.

That's a minor comment somewhat related to the question Mr. Scarpaleggia referred to earlier.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

In your brief, you also talked about the need to regulate the new media sector through the CRTC.

Including the Internet?

[Raymond Legault]

Yes.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

You know the position of the new CRTC president on that.

[Raymond Legault]

We received the decision, in any case.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

You think that's a necessity, that's is important, fundamental.

[Raymond Legault]

We're going to have increasing problems in that regard. Even the Americans find that downloads... Even U.S. copyright is dealing with the lack of regulation on the Internet. Whether it's copyright or other rights, it's the same thing. This is an opportunity for all Canadians to download without paying a cost. We saw this with Sonar. When we ask that the CRTC be regulated, I would say that even the private broadcasters will need that. Otherwise, revenues will dry up. And if there's no more revenue, there will be no more production. There will have to be models in that area. The Paramount people have already said that things could not continue this way. They even stopped doing film premieres in Montreal, precisely because they were afraid of piracy. So all that has to be taken into account. We saw that with Napster in the United States.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

That will require more consultation work. This is a major issue, but one that, incidentally, is related to the emerging technologies Radio-Canada is discussing. I understand the allusion in your brief.

I'm talking about funding sources because that's a very important component. For the moment, you only have one, and that is the state, Parliament. That source is proving to be insufficient, in view of the cuts that were made in the early 1990s and that have not been restored. This is also funding that has not been indexed. People almost unanimously talk about the need to increase financial support for CBC/Radio-Canada.

Mr. Grégoire, in your brief, you talked about the idea of giving the CBC/Radio-Canada access to a subscriber fee from the cable companies. Can you elaborate on that subject?

[Marc Grégoire]

We think it is quite absurd that a double standard is applied to special interest and specialty channels. Specialty television was vulnerable at first. So extremely particular conditions were created to enable those channels to establish themselves in the television universe. Today, specialty channels—you and I both saw the reports of the companies, Astral Media, which is very prominent in Quebec—make a lot of profits and remit quite little in terms of production licences. As I said earlier, it's in the order of perhaps 10% or 15%.

So as Mr. Legault said, with advertising declining as a secondary source of funding, we thought it was at least logical that part of the fees paid to DHT and cable providers should be remitted to CBC/Radio-Canada, because the value of CBC/Radio-Canada raises the value of the bundle offered by Vidéotron, Cogeco and Bell ExpressVu. It was said that part of that money should go back to CBC/Radio-Canada, of course, but provided part of that new fee was required to be put back into priority programs and especially into dramas in order the make the wheels go round.

You talked about the Internet earlier. We agree on that: nothing is free. If writing, acting and directing were free, I don't see why people would do that, unless they were gentlemen artists. That makes no sense. It is necessary, of course, to legislate the Internet, to make it so our conventional structures with those people are reproduced in one way or another, since the only way for an artist to earn a living is to get paid for the work he does. If he is not paid, I don't see why he wouldn't be a taxi driver or something else. So it's the death of creation and of a general culture if a society cannot support its artists.

The Internet changes nothing in the situation other than... There used to be large forges, horses and people highly equipped with nails and horseshoes. Today, they no longer exist: we sell tires. You can have the most beautiful forge in the world, which would be the old television, if no one watches it; you have to take the path of culture in order to express yourself.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

We're pretty close to the end. I was just jotting down a couple of things. There was mention made that Paramount and other movie people for a long time have said that Canada is the biggest pirated movie maker. I find their decision not to make early releases of American films, whether those be in Montreal, Toronto, or anywhere else in Canada.... As we've gone across the country and we've talked about the CBC, we've talked about the influence of the Americans on us. Why should we be worried about whether we have an early release here of an American film, when we don't want that to really be the thing that...? I think it is a great idea that they not make the early releases here. Maybe if the pirating still goes on, it isn't necessarily our fault, but at the same time, those people who don't want to be influenced by the Americans will only have to wait a little bit longer to be influenced, because the movie will come here sometime. I think that might be a tremendous opportunity for some of our Canadian products maybe to get on the screen.

It's just a comment.

I have totally enjoyed your presentations, and thank you for your candid answers. Thank you to our panel for their questions.

We'll recess for just a few minutes. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

The gavel officially starts the meeting.

Again, welcome to our meeting here this afternoon, the 65th meeting of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

You are the third presenters this afternoon. It's a nice warm day, and I'm enjoying this lovely room. We've had some tremendous presentations today, and I know we're looking forward to yours.

We have, from Sports-Québec, Raymond Côté and Michelle Gendron. From Maliseet Nation Radio Inc., we have Mr. Tim Paul and Christopher Collrin. Welcome, folks.

I will go to Sports-Québec first for your presentation. If we can keep the presentations relatively short, it will give us all an opportunity to ask some questions. Thank you.

Go ahead, sir.

[Raymond Côté, President, Sports-Québec]

Since you've received the brief, I'm going to address its content briefly.

Sports-Québec is a private corporation that represents 64 federations and 17 regional sports and recreation units. It is important for us to remind you that we are not a government organization, but rather a private corporation that reaches 800,000 members, Quebeckers, 60,000 coaches and 400,000 volunteers.

This issue is a particular interest and challenge for us. Current investments in sport are minimal. No major and significant investment is currently being made in sport, and that has an impact. It leads us to solicit private businesses. However, those businesses are increasingly raising their requirements. As there is a lot of competition, more choices are being offered to them. That increases their requirements even more, and it is difficult to meet them. Since investment is minimal, we are required to seek new funding in order to finance ourselves. The expectations and requirements of our clientele, whether they be grassroots participants, beginners or high-level athletes, are great, which puts pressure on the system as a whole.

The needs of businesses are greater as well. Since they have a number of choices, they demand that we offer them a lot of benefits. They say they need visibility and want the money invested in us to be profitable. In the past, we had much more significant relations with Radio-Canada. The corporation offered certain services free of charge. It has not only stopped its subsidies and support in the area of visibility, it has simply withdrawn from the sector. For example, it is absent, or virtually absent, from the Quebec Games and Canada Games and national and international championships.

In our view, Radio-Canada has responsibilities as a Crown corporation. With regard to healthy living habits, it can be said that sport is a major solution. In that sense, the role played by Radio-Canada is really inadequate.

In our brief, we've emphasized certain specific moments. In 2002, Radio-Canada terminated the program Les jeux sont faits. In 2003, the televised sports news program was removed from the network, to which we reacted strongly. That was a major loss, in view of the fact that it was broadcast on the Radio-Canada national network. In 2005, the weekly magazine Adrénaline was also removed from the airwaves, and a single daily 30-minute program, Au-dessus de la mêlée, was broadcast. However, it is almost entirely devoted to professional sports. Lastly, in 2005, Radio-Canada did not win the rights to broadcast the Vancouver Games. And yet this is an event that will be held in Canada. For us, this is a significant loss and will have a significant effect.

We will have to watch the English-language network in order to see our own athletes. It makes you wonder. The amount of air time devoted to federated sport is constantly declining, and, where that is not the case, fees are levied. This situation is becoming difficult, even untenable, for organizations at our level. Non-profit organizations must secure funding, but that is becoming all the more difficult in view of needs and expectations.

With regard to Radio-Canada's mandate, we are going to focus on subparagraphs 3(1)(m)(ii), 4 and 7, on which we have some comments to make. We feel that sport is part of the culture of a country. When we say culture, we naturally think of the arts. For us, sport has the same meaning within the culture of a country. In this area, Radio-Canada is not really playing its role. It is not active enough in the area of federated sport.

When we say amateur sport, we're talking about federated sports, that is to say those attached to federated organizations. They are given little coverage in Radio-Canada's programming schedule. There is indeed a gap. This is not a comparison between the CBC and Radio-Canada, but rather an observation. There is really a world of difference between the amount of time devoted to sport on CBC and that devoted to sport on Radio-Canada. In this regard, certain aspects of the mandate are not being met, if we're talking about Anglophone and Francophone presentations. We think that sport, for all Francophones outside Quebec, is given insignificant or no coverage. The information that we have comes from communities to which we provide services across Canada.

I'm coming to the recommendations because I think this is an important aspect. We recommend that the legislative mandate of Radio-Canada/CBC include the responsibility to contribute to the promotion of healthy living habits and federated sport. We want it on the record, recognized and specifically stated that Radio-Canada has a responsibility toward Francophones, including those outside Quebec.

We recommend that all revenue generated by coverage of the Olympics and professional sport be systematically reinvested in the production of programs promoting healthy living habits and federated sport.

We also recommend that Radio-Canada establish partnerships with other broadcasters. That has been done. Let's take the example of RDS. As it is always a matter of costs, we think it is possible for the corporation to be active and intervene in a manner consistent with its financial means.

We recommend that a genuine sports service be established at Radio-Canada. We know about the pooling of resources and technologies. Federated sport has more of a presence on the Internet, but is virtually absent from radio and television. We think that the integration and introduction of a genuine sports team at Radio-Canada would be an advantage and that it would result in maximum use of the skills of all journalists. That is being done and that should be done in the field of sport.

We recommend that sports programming be dedicated to federated sport and provided by Radio-Canada on the conventional and specialty networks. For example, we know perfectly well that not everyone in Montreal has cable. Consequently, the Première Chaîne must really be able to reach those people.

We recommend that Radio-Canada contribute to promoting federated sport by producing and broadcasting sports news programs divided fairly between federated and professional sport. We would like the corporation to return to prime time news broadcasts. They appear on the specialty networks such as RDI, of the Radio-Canada station itself, and reach the conventional network. There's little coverage of, or few references to, federated sport.

We recommend that Radio-Canada produce and broadcast promotional material on improved physical fitness for Canadians: advertising spots, special programs, regular series, specialty magazines, use of inspiring sports models, highlighting our athletes. When you want to change the culture and the ways in which the people as a whole do things, you present them with known and recognized models.

Lastly, we recommend that programming for children and youth include segments popularizing healthy living habits. We must take advantage of these programs, which are aimed specifically at youths, to broadcast messages concerning healthy living habits.

We think that, by touching all these elements, Radio-Canada will truly play its role as a national general-interest corporation for Quebec and Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Who will be our next presenter?

Chris, go ahead, sir.

[Christopher Collrin, Research Director, Maliseet Nation Radio Inc.]

I am here today with Tim Paul, who is president of Maliseet Nation Radio Inc. I have been working with Tim for the last couple of years to expand the radio station throughout New Brunswick and Atlantic Canada.

I want to thank the committee for this opportunity to present.

I'll just give a quick overview of our few-minute presentation today, which will be to bring out the main points of the brief we presented. We will first talk about the mandate of CBC/Radio-Canada as it relates to first nations people of Canada; second, give a bit of background on Heritage Canada's response to the need for the revitalization of first nation languages in Canada; and finally, talk about Maliseet Nation Radio Inc.'s network, which we are attempting to establish to speak to the need to revitalize first nations languages.

To begin, the mandate of CBC/Radio-Canada, as set out in paragraphs 3(1)(l) and 3(1)(m) of the Broadcasting Act of February 1991, does not appear to deal in any significant way with serving the broadcasting needs of Canada's first nations people. The mandate deals specifically with the particular needs of English and French linguistic minorities; however, it does not address the nearly 61 first nation languages currently used within Canada, including several that are listed as endangered, based upon the findings of the Heritage Canada task force report on aboriginal languages and cultures of June 2005.

Maliseet Nation Radio Inc. believes it is imperative that the mandate of CBC/Radio-Canada be expanded to include the different needs and circumstances of various commonly spoken languages of the first nations people across Canada and to include specific reference to the needs of Canada's first nations people.

These needs include, but should not be limited to, issues of language instruction, mother tongue programming, and programming related to culture, heritage, history, and intergenerational transmission. The CBC mandate needs to be expanded to deal with these issues directly and/or indirectly, possibly through sharing of resources and infrastructure and/or via a public-private partnership.

In an effort to respond to the current lack of first nations radio content, Maliseet Nation Radio Inc., MNRI, has created and operates a successful first nations radio broadcasting model that reflects the express needs identified in the 2005 task force report on aboriginal languages and cultures. This radio station is dedicated to first nation language instruction as well as programming related to those issues I mentioned above: culture, heritage, history, and intergenerational transmission.

Based on the recommendations of the task force report and the success of MNRI's operating model, MNRI has developed a strategy that would see the establishment of an Atlantic aboriginal radio network, referred to hereafter as Wabanaki Voices East, possibly as a precursor to a national network, in an effort to bring the first nations' message to all first nations people.

I would like to give some background now on the developments within Heritage Canada relating to the revitalization and perpetuation of first nations mother tongue languages.

In December 2002, the Minister of Canadian Heritage announced that Canada would establish an aboriginal languages and culture centre as part of the commitment in the 2002 Speech from the Throne to help preserve, revitalize, and promote first nations, Inuit, and Métis languages and cultures. In early 2003, the minister took the next step by creating the task force on aboriginal languages and culture as a body whose advice would help set the direction for this new initiative. In June 2005, the task force published its report. In February 2007, Maliseet Nation Radio Inc., operating as CKTP-FM, developed a concept paper for the establishment of Wabanaki Voices East, a first nations radio network dedicated, as I mentioned, to first nations mother tongue programming and language instruction.

That concept paper arose from the success of Maliseet Nation Radio Inc., the network model, and as a response to the main points and recommendations within the task force report of June 2005. This task force report articulates a number of needs, priorities, and objectives with respect to the revitalization, preservation, and perpetuation of first nation, Métis, and Inuit languages and cultures, and offers some strategies with which to achieve these most noble goals and objectives.

The Wabanaki Voices East radio network is guided by the recommendations of the task force report and provides, in my opinion, a cost-effective and efficient means of speaking to many of the recommendations of the task force report, which, without such a network of first nations radio stations, would be virtually impossible, if not cost-prohibitive.

I'd like to conclude with some main points from the task force report to illustrate how Wabanaki Voices East speaks directly to the revitalization and perpetuation of first nation languages. You have these in your brief, but I wanted to highlight three or four.

First, the diversity of first nation, Inuit, and Métis language vitality ranges from flourishing to critically endangered. Even languages with a large number of speakers may be flourishing in some regions or communities and be in a critical state in others. The studies and surveys give a multi-dimensional picture of first nation, Inuit, and Métis languages. Some are spoken by only a few elders, others by tens of thousands. Large language groups such as the Cree, Ojibway, and Inuktitut are viable, having at least 25,000 speakers ranging from the young to the elderly. However, all languages, including those considered viable, are losing ground and considered endangered.

The Wabanaki Voices East network allows for the strategic placement of its stations and repeaters. So that's the model--a station where the programming is developed and broadcast from, with a number of repeaters on the various reserves that are in need of that language instruction and that can enjoy the cultural and mother tongue programming.

These stations can be set up, and the interesting thing is that you can set up the station where the language is viable and, through the repeater, actually broadcast to those areas of the region where the language might be endangered. So you can specifically target the endangered language groups with your programming.

Another point I want to mention is that the focus of language conservation and revitalization efforts must shift from formal institutions to communities, families, and social networks. This is a recommendation of the task force report. Of course, the network accomplishes this by creating programming by the people, for the people.

What we do is we go on to the reserve, we find the language experts, and we utilize institutions--in our situation, the Mi'kmaq-Maliseet Institute at the University of New Brunswick--to work on the development of language curricula to speak to the various levels of language vitality. Think of it as a grade one language lesson for an area of the region where the language is endangered, and perhaps as grade four or grade five language instruction, so more sophisticated, for areas where the language is being spoken with much more fluency.

There are a couple of more points. Another recommendation of the task force report is that elders emphasize that language, culture, spiritual values, and the first nation, Inuit, and Métis sense of identity are inseparable concepts. I would agree that the language is critical to any culture. When the language is lost, the culture is lost, and when the culture is lost, the people are basically lost. They've lost the very roots of their existence. When we lose our language and our culture, we've lost the roots of who we are.

The network enlists the involvement of language experts in each community to design and develop language instruction and programs. Such persons are by their nature already sensitive to this connection between the language and the spirit of who the people are.

My final point is that the task force report emphasized that there was a consensus on the need for a community-driven revitalization strategy based on community commitment to identify priorities and develop and carry out plans that would involve all age groups.

What we've done at Maliseet Nation Radio Inc. with CKTP, our FM station, is to require each participant in the network to broadcast a minimum of six hours a day of first nations content, which will include a minimum of 10 hours per week of mother tongue language instruction. This will ensure that the project will have a community-driven revitalization strategy.

So our recommendation to this committee is that the federal government and/or the CBC consider the possibility of a public-private partnership to pilot the development of a first nations radio network throughout Atlantic Canada and ultimately throughout all of Canada.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you for that presentation.

We'll go to Mr. Scarpaleggia first.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Thank you very much. That was very interesting on both counts.

Could you give us a bit of a refresher as to the CBC radio's and CBC television's current involvement with first nations? There's CBC North, I think it is. What is the aboriginal presence or connection to CBC radio and TV at the moment?

[Tim Paul, President, Maliseet Nation Radio Inc.]

I believe they're mandated to provide a certain percentage of aboriginal content. They're doing some of it, but on a site-specific basis, for Maliseet people for instance, it's hard to get the language programs mixed with all the other programs that are involved with CBC. It's a big corporation. You just have Maliseets and Mi'kmaqs in the Maritimes, and for various reasons they aren't getting much air time with CBC. They have no language programs there. There aren't any cultural activities on CBC. They do the odd news story, and that kind of thing, but that's it.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

They do the odd news story in a first nations language?

[Tim Paul]

No.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Is the CBC Radio or TV anywhere in Canada broadcasting in first nation languages?