Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 19th, 2010

[John Kendell]

I would also agree that the third Saturday is more than suitable. It works for our membership.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Monsieur Pomerleau.

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Rodgers, I'd like to thank you for your rather eloquent presentation. It's obvious that you are a true nature lover. I have a question for you, as a nature lover, and one for Mr. Bailey, as an expert who has taken courses in this subject.

The question is not directly related to the topic under discussion. However, I would like to get your opinion on this. You've told us, as have others, just how much sport hunters and anglers benefit the environment through the money they invest, the hours of work they put in and their conservation efforts. From a commercial standpoint, however, we're facing a completely different situation.

How do you feel personally about that fact that in your region of Atlantic Canada, the waters have been overfished? How could this have happened when there are so many people involved in conservation efforts? What is your take of this situation?

[Tony Rodgers]

I think it's a different type of fishing that we're talking about, to start off with, because a commercial fishery....

But let's get back to the feelings, to the first part of your question. I think the thing that happens to me, and I will probably speak for 99% of the people who participate in our activities, is that once we step into the field or step into the brook, the worries of our days disappear. The stress comes flowing into the water and away from us. That is very rewarding--so rewarding that at times it's hard to get back to work.

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I wonder what you're doing here.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Tony Rodgers]

All of us walking down the street coming here were saying that we should be in the woods hunting pheasants today—all of us. So yes, you're right on.

The commercial aspect of losing the fishery on the east coast, as Mr. Simms also knows, has been devastating. It has hurt a lot of our small communities. A lot of these small communities, though, have found ways of utilizing angling and other aspects of wildlife to get back into it. For instance, there are fishermen taking tourists on whale-watching tours and bird-watching activities. Things of that nature have helped commercially. There's still some commercialization within the trapping, of course, and we heard the numbers earlier, and some of the people have worked off into those industries.

It has been difficult, but there has been good news in the last little while. It appears that some of the stocks are starting to come back. Hopefully, that will be something we can rely on in the future, if we haven't lost our skills to catch the fish in the future. I say this because the young fishermen have now gone into computers and have disappeared from the shoreline. They're now working in Alberta in the tar sands. God knows if learning how to actually fish is going to be something.... My brother-in-law is a lobster fishermen in P.E.I. He sold his equipment last year. He had four sons and none of the sons went into the fishing industry.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you very much, Mr. Rodgers.

Merci, monsieur Pomerleau.

Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Obviously, we have widespread support, at least around this table, for this bill. I'm interested because I deal with fishing and hunting issues all the time. When I knock on people's doors, they don't tend to talk to me about the national issues of the day; they talk to me about slot sizes for fish. It is all very much under provincial jurisdiction.

Since we have this chance to talk, I'd like to talk a bit about wildlife management policy. The other day when I was here in Ottawa, we had a bear in my garage. I have a dog, and the dog's job—though he doesn't know it's his job—is to deal with the bears. If he doesn't deal with the bears, we'll get another dog.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I guess that comment is really going to come back and hurt me. You guys won't run those attack mailings, but the other guys might: “Charlie Angus doesn't like dogs”. No, I like dogs that are efficient at dealing with bears, and our dog is very good at that.

There's a general sense in the north in terms of wildlife management that when decisions are made that are not based on sustainability, not based on science or conservation, we have bad outcomes. For example, since Premier Harris cancelled the spring bear hunt, we've not seen in the north the balance that existed before. We've had periods of time when the bear population has gone completely out of whack. We ended up a year ago with all kinds of orphaned bears getting killed at the sides of the roads; the mothers were being forced to come into town because the big male bears that normally were killed during the spring hunt weren't being killed.

Mr. Farrant, I'd like to ask your opinion, not so much on the spring bear hunt but on what role OFAH would play in terms of public policy. If we're looking at changing an activity because there might be a particular community or constituency that is opposed to it, how does OFAH play a role in ensuring that we have wildlife management decisions based on science, based on conservation, and on what is actually being seen in the field?

[Greg Farrant]

Thank you very much for the question, Mr. Angus.

The Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters is a non-profit, charitable, conservation-based organization. We rely on science in all of our policies. Whether it's invasive species, species at risk, or restoration of species, science is the watchword.

You're quite correct that the decision to cancel the spring bear hunt was not based on science, unfortunately, and we are now paying the price for it. Madame Lavallée, on second reading of the bill in the House, made some comments about wildlife management, the control of wildlife populations, and the role hunting plays in that. She's quite right.

In particular, the Government of Ontario, strangely enough, which cancelled the spring bear hunt and has caused so many problems because of that, has made the point in its policy documents at the Ministry of Natural Resources that hunting is the most valuable wildlife management tool available to it. Madame Lavallée noted, which was very insightful on her part, that other methods of controlling wildlife populations, such as birth control or relocation, are ineffective and costly. Wildlife managers have indicated that if recreational sport hunting is not available to them for wildlife population management and control, there aren't enough dollars to replace that for the actual management and control of wildlife.

So it's a valuable tool not only in terms of the recreation, culture, and heritage that we're talking about here today, but also in supporting the scientific management of populations in wildlife management units in Ontario and across the country.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

In terms of, for example, the moose population, what I hear on the street is that the moose tag system is broken. It's badly broken. It's always broken. Everybody I know says they have never gotten a moose tag, and everybody I know knows some guy who gets a moose tag every single year. I don't know how that can be. I've never met the guy who gets it every single year, but everybody knows someone.

There is pressure. There are a lot of people who want to hunt moose. There are a lot of people who, come the fall, if they're not out in the bush, are driving their wives crazy. The wives will put them out in the bush anyway, even if they don't have a moose tag, and they'll send the dogs, too.

Is the moose-tag hunt system in Ontario working? Is it based on science? Can we improve the system so that it is fair for people ? I mean, it is part of a way of life for many people.

[Greg Farrant]

We've gotten somewhat off track on the bill we're here to discuss today.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Well, as I said, this is the only chance I'm going to get to ask you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you, Mr. Angus, for the question.

Mr. Farrant, could you answer it? Then we'll move on to Mr. Del Mastro.

[Greg Farrant]

There is an Environmental Bill of Rights posting right now to change the way the moose tag allocation system works in Ontario. You're quite right: it hasn't worked well. There are many areas, such as the areas around Algonquin Park and elsewhere, where the tags have been difficult.

It's a good thing you didn't ask my colleague, who shot his first moose just two weeks ago and actually brought a picture today. Don't ask to see it.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Greg Farrant]

The system is being revamped now, as we speak. As I said, there's an EBR posting there. We are working with the province to try to fix it, because it is broken.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. Richards.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all of you for being here today to talk to us about a subject you're obviously all very passionate about. I know that you could be enjoying the activities you're here to speak about, and I hope that at the end of the day you will feel that your time here was as worthwhile as I know it has been for us to hear your points of view and your opinions. Thank you very much.

I also want to take a very brief second to thank my colleague, Mr. Norlock, for bringing forward this bill. It's a very important initiative he has undertaken to recognize a very important part of our heritage and our history here in Canada.

The area I come from out west was settled first by our native peoples, of course, who obviously relied very much on hunting, trapping, and fishing for their way of life. Also, as it was settled later by us Europeans, the fur trade was a very important part of settling many of the communities we have today. So it's a very important initiative Mr. Norlock has undertaken here and I commend him for that. I commend you all for being here to support him in that initiative.

I have a three-part question. I'll just lay out the three questions and then allow all of you to answer as you see fit--any or all parts of the questions.

First of all, you've all mentioned that you have fairly extensive memberships. I'm curious as to the kinds of consultations and discussions you've had with your members about this particular legislation and how important they feel it is for ensuring they're able to carry on the heritage and the activities they enjoy in hunting, trapping, and fishing. Or do they see it more as a symbolic piece of legislation or as something that in practical...that nature will help to ensure we can carry on with the activities that you and your members all enjoy so much?

Second, by way of comparison, I'd like to know about the consultations and discussions you've had with your members in regard to the recent vote on the Liberal long-gun registry, and obviously the deep concern that many of your members would have about what took place during that vote on keeping the long-gun registry in existence. Certainly, we had a number of Liberal and NDP members who flip-flopped on the positions they previously had put forth and previously voted on. Of course, we have three who are in this room with us today on the other side of the table. I want to know how your members feel and about their concerns about the flip-flops we saw from these Liberal and NDP members who allowed that piece of legislation to be voted down.

Perhaps you could do that by way of comparison in terms of the consultations and the discussions you've had with your members. How much have you been hearing from them on these two particular issues by way of comparison?

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you, Mr. Richards.

Before I let the witnesses respond, Madam Crombie, did you have something you wanted to ask the chair?

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I just wondered about the relevance of the question, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Well, we are on the study of Bill C-465, An Act respecting a National Hunting, Trapping and Fishing Heritage Day, so it is relevant in that it does relate to the topic of hand. I'm going to allow the question to be put.

Thank you very much, Mr. Richards.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

I did have a third part to the question as well, Mr. Chair.