Canadian Heritage Committee on June 5th, 2013

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

I'm sure you care

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

But it's the law; it doesn't change.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Let's go back to the first point then, the one I mentioned about the 150th celebration. Do you think there should be an independent agency to look after the celebrations of 150 years, for the sesquicentennial.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

It's one of the things we're considering. We haven't decided on it because, to be honest, we had differing experiences, for example, when I was minister responsible for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics. We had VANOC, which was an independent organization, and very often when we have independent organizations, what they will often do—and your government will remember this well—is to have all kinds of hype and to dream up all kinds of great big things and stir up all kinds of excitement about something, and then all they do is then to turn to the government and say, “Now fund it”. I think that's not necessarily the best model to follow.

The idea of having, certainly, independence in making sure that our celebrations are seen to be pan-Canadian and obviously non-partisan, thoughtful, and inclusive of all parts of the country, respectful of our official languages, and all of our diversity in the country, of course, is self-evident.

That would only benefit the program, but the way in which it's structured matters very much because, as I personally experienced in the past, there have been organizations that have been independent, have dialed up expectations, and then turned to the government and said, “Now pay for it”, without any input whatsoever.

There's a way to do it that matters, and that was one of the recommendations of the committee that was looking at it, and we're taking that into account.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Simms.

Mr. Hillyer, for seven minutes.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Minister, for coming to visit us on this subject.

There's a lot of talk about how this name and mandate change has been politically motivated. I have trouble seeing it; I don't understand how it's politically motivated. I wonder if changing the name to the Canadian Museum of History, which also includes not just Canadian history but our place in the world and therefore world history as well, is politically motivated. Would that suggest perhaps that the lack of a Canadian of museum of history up to this point was also politically motivated, perhaps owing to a doctrine that Canadians have to be self-effacing and that it's somehow un-Canadian to be pro-Canadian?

I guess I can't ask you why people think it's politically motivated because you can't think for other people, but what are your thoughts on that notion?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

If this were in any way partisan or politically motivated, I wouldn't have shared the language of the legislation with the NDP and the Liberals, and the Green Party before we tabled it. If this were partisan, we wouldn't have the broad-based support that we have for it. If this were partisan, former NDP MP and now independent MP Bruce Hyer wouldn't have voted for it. If this were partisan, Elizabeth May wouldn't have voted for it. If this were partisan we wouldn't have the support of former Liberal MP John English. When I spoke to Jean Chrétien about this, he liked the idea. He thought it was a good idea and proposed that we go forward with it.

When I say this is non-partisan, I genuinely mean that, and if colleagues want to see devils where there aren't any, then they'll see them, and that's just the way it is. As I said, maybe this will be a circumstance of believing me later when the results are fully shown, but this is going to be a great project. It's going to be great. It is.

There are institutions lining up to be signatories to the MOUs across the country. I can tell you that the Royal British Columbia Museum; the Manitoba Museum; and The Rooms in St. John's, Newfoundland, all want to sign-on. They're going to be partners in this. We have museums all across the country, large and small, that are thumbs-up enthusiastic. They understand the value of this, the importance of this. Every single member of the current board of the Canadian Museum of Civilization, every single one of them, supports this museum. Past board chairs are supporting this.

This has broad-based support across the country because this is a classical example of Occam's razor. This is exactly what it appears to be, the creation of a national institution that will be of value to every part of the country. It will teach Canada's history as Canadians want to teach it, one to another, in the institutions where they live. That's what this is. Anybody who tries to spin this or torque this into something that it's not is really playing a fool's game.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

You wouldn't say there was political motivation to avoid it up to this point?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

The Canadian Museum of Civilization, I think, has a great track record. They've had great successes. Certainly the staff at the museum is great.

Keep in mind, by the way, about one-third of the Museum of Civilization's budget right now goes to research. That will continue to be the case because there is great research that is done there, and it will continue to move forward.

They've built a great legacy there that we're building upon.

If we were in any way disrespecting the Canadian Museum of Civilization, Douglas Cardinal would not be supporting this. He was one of the great visionaries who helped build this institution. If we were in any way diminishing the value of this institution, the mayors of Gatineau and Ottawa wouldn't be supporting this project, but they are, because they see this as an important step forward in enlarging the value of this museum and what it means for the national capital and the country.

I don't know what to say to the opponents of this. There are not many of them and, frankly, those who are have very, very weak arguments. I'd have to be blunt.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Where I come from, all the cities are young. The province of Alberta itself was created in 1905. We think that Canada started in 1867. I personally had never heard of Saint Jean de Brébeuf before I took French literature courses in university.

Could you tell us about the importance of understanding history, even before 1867?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Yes, that is something very important. In the House of Commons, I did not have the chance to say enough about that. So let me make it clear.

You notice the name of this museum. Again, I mentioned how we reached out to opposition parties and showed them the language of the bill before we tabled it. We spoke to people before we did this. It is a demonstration, by the way, of the effort that we've made to try to be as inclusive as possible with this museum. Some people have asked why it will be called the Canadian Museum of History. The reason is that we don't want to limit it singularly and only to Canada's history. And equally, it's the Canadian Museum of History because not all Canadians trace back their lineage back to 1867. Of course, aboriginal Canadians have a different view of when their history and their lineage began on this continent and what that means to them.

I think my deputy minister will agree with me that we had very painstaking conversations and e-mails back and forth, working things around and making the name work in both official languages in a way that was inclusive for Canadians themselves and institutions across the country, so that they will be able to talk about history and Canadian history in a context that makes the most sense to them. So we came up with the title, the most appropriate one, the one that works best—the Canadian Museum of History—to be inclusive of Canada's first people and to be inclusive of all the different stories and narratives that have led us to where we are today.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

One of the things that excites me about this notion is the pan-Canadian network that you talked about. You said in your comments at the beginning that “It's time for this country to think big”. Now, to be fair, and I'm sure you aren't insinuating this, this is not the first time this country has ever thought big. We have a nature of thinking big.

There's the notion in the past that we could only think big or do big if it were being propped up by the federal government. You've talked about how the regional museums can profit from this central museum. But what about the other way around? How can the central museum or one region benefit from another region by their being able to share their local histories with the rest of Canada?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Yes, it's an important point. This is one thing we envision as well, that not just will local museums be able to draw down items from the national museum and host them locally; local museums can also take some of their collections and move them to other parts of the country, or to the national museum as well.

So the idea of a partnership isn't just stuff moving from the national museum to locally, but stuff locally moving up nationally, or moving to other parts of the country.

I've had the privilege—it's been an incredible privilege, I can tell you—to visit all kinds of museums across this country. We have thousands of museums across the country, I can tell you. I've gone through them in painstaking detail—sometimes with lots of boredom on the face of my wife as I go through some of these things—and aggravating some of the people who are with me by how much time I like to spend in museums. But the truth is that when you go to museums around the country, you realize there are some incredible gems out there. There are some incredible things and stories that should be told.

I think I told this committee this story about one of the catalysts that drew me to this idea of networking all of our museums together. It was when I visited the museum in Midway, British Columbia.

If you haven't been to Midway, it's a very small town. And it is where it sounds like: midway across the border between Alberta and the Pacific Ocean, on the southern border of British Columbia. It's a small little town, with a population of I think 2,500 persons. They have a small little museum there, and I went in. Against the back wall they had this display by the Japanese Canadians of Midway, British Columbia. It's a small association. This was a display of people of Japanese descent who still live in the south Okanagan, who decided, after having been displaced and put in internment camps in the Second World War, to stay in the south Okanagan and make lives for themselves.

There are all kinds of items there that talk about the hardships they faced, the racism they went through, the difficulties in establishing themselves, the pride they now feel in having gone through all that, and the successful lives they've made for themselves and their families.

It's not a big display, but it's very impactful. I looked at it and I thought, “This is really quite something.” I left the museum, and when I signed the guest book I was saddened to see that I was about the sixtieth person to visit that museum in the last two months. I thought, “What a waste. This is a great story to tell.” As I went on with the rest of my road trip, I thought to myself that there had to be some way....

I know that the Canadian Museums Association advocates for local museums, but they don't really have the capacity to do these things. I thought about it: what can we do so that people in other parts of the country can see this display and understand its impact, and maybe host something in an exchange? Maybe a national museum should see this display. Japanese internment is spoken about in the Canadian War Museum, but it's not talked about in that kind of personal way, with individual stories of people who talk about what they went through, how they came out the other end, and how they ended up being very successful and proud Canadians in spite of the suffering they went through. It's a great story.

So I started thinking about it, and where we arrived at is where we are today. I'm very proud of that. From those early moments of thinking about how we can tie these institutions together, here we are. We're now at—hopefully soon—report stage of Bill C-49 to create the Canadian Museum of History.

That little museum in Midway, British Columbia, can be a partner now. That little collection I saw those couple of years ago can now be hosted at the national museum, and those Japanese Canadians who are telling their story in the south Okanagan might now have the opportunity to share that story with other Canadians.

That's what we're doing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Hillyer.

Mr. Cash.

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

I'm going to have to be fairly quick here.

First of all, has the Mayor of Gatineau made a public statement of support for this museum?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I believe as a public statement.... He said it to me in private, and he said—

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

Well, has he signed a declaration? Has he made a public statement that he is in support of this?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I asked him personally and he said, yes, absolutely, and if you want me to send something—

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

This is part of the problem we have. So much of the issue here with this museum is that it's a personal endeavour between you and other personal relationships that you have.

I mean, you're announcing here that the Mayor of Gatineau supports the changes when the people of Gatineau haven't heard that officially from the mayor himself.

Is this the official announcement of his support?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I've said so from the.... I spoke to him in my office. I talked to him before we tabled the legislation. I talked to Mr. Bureau and as well as Jim Watson. I told them what we were—

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

You say that the government doesn't interfere, and that agencies are very independent, but we know that Bill C-60 will give powers to cabinet—

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Hold on. With respect, Andrew, to just roll through this—

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

Excuse me. Can I just ask the question first?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Yes, but just to call Mr. Bureau a liar.... Like, come on.

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

Pardon me?