Evidence of meeting #8 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was money.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON
Forgive me, sir, we don't have much time.
It sounds as if you've got a persecution complex. We don't have specific cases. We need something more specific. You're telling us about generalities.
12:45 p.m.
As an Individual
It's simple. Do what I asked for, the same thing as the Germans do with their citizens. Put me in front of a Canadian court. Don't you think how much I would love this, when all Canadians find out what a mess it is in the RCMP, the Ministry of Justice, and this government? I would love to disclose this to all Canadians. I think you should have the same interest, because it's a huge mess.
12:45 p.m.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
Thank you very much.
I would like to go back to the letter of May 8 again because what you told me earlier, Mr. Schreiber, is absolutely nothing. You told me nothing.
I don't understand, in the circumstances, why you threatened Mr. Mulroney in writing to reveal anything at all because you knew nothing, apart a rumour, hearsay.
How could Mr. Mulroney consider that a threat? You don't even know the name of his lawyer in Switzerland. You know nothing.
12:45 p.m.
As an Individual
Mr. Mulroney may have an understanding of what other people may say about this. I refer now.... I come back to witnesses and other people who may have to say something about it. On top of this, it was not a threat from my side, ma'am. I asked him to do what he was asking for for 12 years--a public inquiry. When you look at his book and you look at the last letter I sent to the Prime Minister and you see what Mr. Mulroney is saying, what we have to fight in this country, it looks to me.... I'm a very good fighter, exactly on that battlefield of Mr. Harper and Mr. Mulroney. But it looks to me as if I'm the only warrior here.
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
Tell me how much Mr. Mulroney received, and from whom exactly? I don't just want hearsay.
What exactly are the indications or the information you have on the fact that Mr. Mulroney received other amounts of money from GCI, from Frank Moores and company?
If you want to fight, do it, but give us the information.
12:50 p.m.
As an Individual
Well, for example, I told you about this agreement that I understood was made before the event had started to get Brian Mulroney to become Prime Minister. Here is something funny: There is Walter Wolf, who was a key figure, with money in the case; there is Gary Ouellet, who was a key figure; and here is Karlheinz Schreiber. None of the three is in the book.
So now I wanted to remind him that I was present when this was all discussed, what the future is. And in that case it was not GCI but Altanova; that was how it started out. And yes, I think he should know what's going on, and he should know that there might be other people coming forward and saying things, because I cannot get it that nobody can get an answer from him as to what the money was for. I told him in my letter, why couldn't you say from the beginning what your wife told you--tell the truth. There was no problem with the $300,000. I don't know why the man is so scared. I don't know why he did not fulfill his commitments to help finance my lawsuit out in Alberta from 1997.
There was another crazy event when he suddenly, out of the blue, not that long ago, came and said I had rented a suite at the Chateau Laurier to embarrass him and the Prime Minister, Mr. Harper, on the event when Mr. Mulroney was honoured for the Canadian-Ukrainian relationship. I didn't know what it was all about. It was nonsense. But he was so wild on this that in the middle of night I called my lawyer in Edmonton, because—I have to say this—Mr. MacKay had enough from all this and he didn't want to be involved in it any more. So he called my lawyer again in Edmonton and asked him. I had not the smallest clue. Again he said, “Look, tell Mr. Schreiber I'm helping him.” But the next morning, when we tried to serve him as we had agreed upon in the other lawsuit, where I asked for the payback of the $300,000, he told the person who was there to serve him, “No, no, no, this is all over; we are friends again and we agreed to this.”
I don't get it any more, but you may get the answers on Thursday.
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
You didn't answer my question. You gave me no figures. You haven't given me any concrete facts supporting what you advance in the letter of May 8. Ultimately, I can only note that you haven't answered.
Now I'm going to talk to you about GCI's role. You know that GCI and Frank Moores always denied that they had lobbied for Airbus. They contended that their client was MBB Helicopter.
Can you, who were intimately involved in the matter, tell me about the involvement of Frank Moores and GCI in the Airbus affair?
12:50 p.m.
As an Individual
Well, officially, as far as I know—this is why I showed you the letter—this was always announced and declared, that GCI had nothing to do with Airbus. Maybe that's correct, that they had no direct contact with Airbus Industrie. Yes, maybe, whether you like it or not.
But when the president from GCI has correspondence with the chairman from Airbus Industrie.... You should have seen this in the document. If that is not telling you enough, I cannot help you.
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
Who at GCI worked directly or indirectly for Airbus?
12:50 p.m.
As an Individual
I'm not aware whether anybody ever worked directly for Airbus. Would that have meant they showed up, or what? I have no recollection on this. There were so many rumours and so many people approached me on it that it would fill a week if I'd tell you all the stories around this. This is why I said you don't even know, so far, how the Airbus deal was done. One day, I think--the day will come, and if it's not with you it will be with the inquiry--I will say how fantastic that was done, the Airbus deal. It started in Alberta; it didn't even start in Ottawa.
12:55 p.m.
Bloc
12:55 p.m.
As an Individual
Sure, I know. It was brilliant. It was in the way, when I made the concept for it—and this was, by the way, in the article from Philip Mathias, and I don't know from whom he got it, I think from Boeing—Mr. Strauss said to me, “Karlheinz, either you are an idiot or a genius, but don't worry, this is always very close together.” I was not the idiot; I made it. And the European aircraft industry survived.
12:55 p.m.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
How was the contract entered into? You say you commented on the contract. You said you were a genius, but, apart from that, how was it done?
12:55 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes, it worked with a Trojan Horse. It worked with a Trojan Horse. The Trojan Horse was Max Ward and domestic flying rights--sometime you will get what that means--flying in competition against Air Canada, which would have bankrupt Air Canada because it had the wrong equipment. The Airbus had perhaps half of the fuel consumption needed by the 727s and perhaps two and three times the passenger and cargo capacity. That comparison was good. But when you saw the fear from the Americans, and that was in the Toronto Star article.... It was that as soon as the Airbus would fly on solid soil against the Boeing or the American aircraft of the day, everybody would have lost.
Keep in mind it was Max Ward, it was Canadian, it was Air Canada, and it was 110 Airbus to Northwest Orient Airlines in the United States. I am very proud of this, ma'am.
12:55 p.m.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
You seem very proud indeed, but you should tell us what specific role you played with GCI in the affair.
12:55 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes. The point was that Max Ward, as a thank you, received the domestic flying rights. Otherwise, he could not use the Airbus. But by doing it, flying against Air Canada in competition, Air Canada was forced to buy equipment that was of similar quality to compete.
And we tried this first with Pacific Western in Alberta, an airline that belonged to the province, in combination with Max Ward. Oh yes, it's a hell of a story, but it was told.
12:55 p.m.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
Was it that kind of conversation you had with Mr. Mulroney? You met him four, five, perhaps six times in various places, Montreal, New York and Switzerland. I imagine you didn't just transfer money and that you had a conversation with Mr. Mulroney on various topics.
You didn't just hand over $100,000 and say goodbye.
12:55 p.m.
As an Individual
I can tell you one thing, that I never mentioned Airbus to him, and I was very, very sensitive on this. And you may take it as a fact that I met quite often with Claude Taylor, and I didn't mention it, but I was then approached by other members of the board from Air Canada--Peter Bawden, with his friend John Lundrigan--who wanted just $400,000 from me, and I would never get the Airbus contract done. And Mazankowski owes him the contract. The nonsense, you wouldn't believe it.
Ma'am, it's a fight for money. It is a world you are not in, and it is tough for you to understand.
12:55 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Mr. Schreiber, I have a series of fairly short questions for you.
Mr. Hiebert seemed to have very detailed information about a meeting in your office between you and your lawyer and the RCMP. Did either you or your lawyer tell Mr. Hiebert about that meeting?
12:55 p.m.
As an Individual
Well, we had a very intensive meeting with the lawyers because of my complaints--
12:55 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
No, that isn't my question. I'm not even interested in that.
Who told Mr. Hiebert about that meeting? Was it you or your lawyer? Neither?
December 11th, 2007 / 12:55 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Well then I wonder who would have given Mr. Hiebert such detailed information if only the RCMP were the other people in the room. That worries me.
