Fisheries Committee on April 16th, 2008

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for coming.

I'm from British Columbia, a long way from here. I'm also the parliamentary secretary to the minister, so I like to follow these issues as closely as I can on top of my involvement on this committee.

I think you made the comment that you only see money at election time. Actually, I don't recall it coming at election time as part of any platform in recent years. I'll have to go back and look at that.

Just for information, my understanding is that on P.E.I. there are 42 harbour authorities that manage 55 harbours. Most of those are core harbours; 11 of them are non-core harbours. It's also my understanding that the harbour authority model came into play in 1987.

I'm going to split my time with my colleague from Alberta, and he can ask some more specific questions, but I'll ask this question about the period prior to 1987.

From your comments, Mr. Jenkins, I wasn't quite sure whether you were saying that the harbour authority model was one you liked or didn't like or thought was working. Prior to 1987, how did things work? Did you think it was better then?

Maybe others would like to comment as well. Do you think we have the right model with the harbour authorities?

[Bobby Jenkins]

Prior to 1987, fishermen kept the money in their back pockets, so to speak. When we entered into the agreements with the federal government on harbour authorities, we were led to believe that on the small stuff, we were to take care of it. The big problems, the infrastructure, would be taken care of by the federal government.

I've already told you that some of us had to go to the banks and put our names on loan papers to cover some of the big projects. The money wasn't coming from the federal government the way it should have come.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

And who paid for both the major and minor costs prior to 1987?

[Bobby Jenkins]

It was the federal government, to my knowledge.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

So you weren't responsible, as fishermen, for any of those costs.

[Bobby Jenkins]

That's correct.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Mr. Norton.

[Greg Norton]

Anything we got done.... There was a fellow I knew pretty well in the province and he was allowed to spend $500 at a time, so if I had a little project that was worth $1,500 he'd write me three cheques for $500 so he wouldn't get in trouble. That's basically how we ran it. The province would help us out a little bit with trying to do little band-aid things to try to keep the thing going. Every once in a while the federal government would do something, but Annandale was pretty well on the back burner as far as trying to get anything done.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

You're talking about when?

[Greg Norton]

Prior to 1987. At that time, in 1987, we probably had about 27 or 28 smaller boats, and the facility that had been worked on was still okay then, but 20 years have gone by since then.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

The other point I want to make before turning it over to Mr. Calkins is if you go back and look at the budget figures, say for the last 20 years or so, you will see a fair amount of fluctuation in terms of how much has been spent on small craft harbours, particularly on maintenance. In the mid-1990s, for example, there was a significant cost-cutting program in place. There was certainly no more than half as much as is being spent now, and I understand that what's spent now doesn't satisfy those who actually have to use these facilities. I'm sure that would be reflected in the condition of the facilities. It has been as high as $150 million in a year for small craft harbours, or close to it, and as low as $50 million in other years. Obviously that would be reflected.

[Greg Norton]

Maybe I could ask you a question. What would you think would be reasonable in the last 20 years to have spent on a harbour?

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Any particular harbour?

[Greg Norton]

Like Annandale--what would be a reasonable amount of money to put into that harbour to keep it...?

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

I don't know the answer to that question. I think each harbour is different, and that's why we're making this trip, to find out if everyone is experiencing the same kind of thing or if there is an unevenness in the way the harbours are being treated.

Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you, Randy.

I have some questions that deal more with diversification as to ways harbour authorities can generate some revenue. I've heard from folks in Newfoundland and I've also heard from folks who have come to Ottawa to testify that from time to time it is not just fishing vessels that are showing up in these small craft harbours. There are transient vessels, people with yachts, or whatever the case might be that might want to pull in and have a place to tie up if the weather is bad or whatever the case might be.

Could you provide for the committee a breakdown of the number of boats that you would have that are fishing boats, non-fishing boats, recreational boats that are there all year round, and transient boats that come in? I'd like to get an idea of what that's like here in Prince Edward Island.

[Greg Norton]

Just at our harbour alone there are roughly 36 to 37 that are full-time fishermen. There are probably two or three different speedboats that come in and may stay for the summer, but where we are situated there is not a big transient bunch of vessels that come in and out. We're not in a spot where tuna would lay off or they would come in and out and change. North Lake, Naufrage, and harbours like that have a lot of vessels that come in and tie up for the summer, but Annandale doesn't have that.

[Bobby Jenkins]

I just checked with our treasurer. He keeps the money. We haven't made a nickel off a transient vessel in the last five years. It's all on the backs of the fishermen.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

All right, fair enough.

We did hear in Newfoundland and Labrador that depending on which particular harbour authority, there was a fee charged for the offloading, either a quarter of a cent a pound or half a cent a pound, or whatever the case might be.

[Gregory Norton]

The way it has to work is that you need to have so much money in the bank. Let's say this east wall, which is a sore point with us, collapses; you have to have some money or they won't even look at you. So we've saved up $50,000 in the bank now. We're waiting. If this east wall happens to give out, it will be an emergency to fix. If you don't have any funding saved, they won't even look at you. They want to see some initiative, that you're trying to manage the harbour and keep the thing working.

So yes, we've managed to save up $50,000. We're waiting to do this east wall, and every year we keep the little maintenance things going.

Is that the answer to your question?

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Yes, I'm looking for something along that line.

How much would you collect annually in berthage fees or offloading fees as a harbour authority?

[Gregory Norton]

It's roughly between $350 and $450 annually for each boat.

[Bobby Jenkins]

It's about $20,000 a year for the buyers and everybody.

[Gregory Norton]

In total, yes.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

That would be your revenues, and then you add your volunteer time to that. While it doesn't show up as cash in the bank, it certainly is an asset that you depend upon in order to keep your harbours going. Would $20,000 be about the same for...?