Evidence of meeting #26 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Myron Roth  Industry Specialist, Aquaculture and Seafood, Policy and Industry Competitiveness Branch, British Columbia Ministry of Agriculture, Government of British Columbia

February 27th, 2012 / 3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I call this meeting to order.

For committee members' benefit, I have a piece of business that I want to raise. We were notified last week of a parliamentary delegation from Norway that will be in Ottawa next Monday. Several members of this parliamentary delegation have been following our study on closed containment aquaculture and requested to meet with the committee.

On your behalf I accepted that invitation last week, so our committee meeting next week will begin a few minutes earlier, at 3:15. The good news is that it will be in Centre Block and the meeting will last for only half an hour. The delegation has other business to take care of while they're here. They will be attending other meetings.

So next Monday, if it's the wish of the committee members to meet with this delegation from Norway, I think we'll find it very productive and certainly informative.

I have a little item of business pertaining to that. The clerk tells me that there is a motion being circulated at this point in time due to the difference in the meeting. We need a separate motion to basically pay for the coffee, tea, and juice for this meeting, as it falls outside of the parameters of a regular meeting.

The motion being circulated to committee members is that the clerk of the committee make the necessary arrangements for a reception on Monday, March 5, 2012, at 3:15 p.m., in Room 356-S, Centre Block, with a parliamentary delegation from Norway.

Could I have a mover for that motion?

It is moved by Mr. Sopuck and seconded by Mr. Toone.

(Motion agreed to)

Thank you, committee members.

So next Monday's meeting will be at 3:15 p.m. in Room 356-S at Centre Block.

Mr. Donnelly, you have an issue you want to raise.

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC

Yes, thanks, Mr. Chair.

Just before we get going, I wanted to ask you, Mr. Chair, about the meetings we've had over the past while and looking forward this week. We've had essentially one hour, so half our committee time has been used for hearing from witnesses. I'm just wondering if there is a reason why we're only using half of our time when we could be utilizing or maximizing the full two hours of our committee.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

No, there hasn't been any specific reason.

At the last committee meeting, if you recall, there was a provision made for a motion, and that motion wasn't brought forward. Generally it is the practice that when there is a motion tabled, the members have the opportunity to bring that motion forward whenever they see fit and if they've given proper notice.

I allotted a certain amount of time for that motion. At the last meeting we had, that motion wasn't brought forward, and we were done questioning the witnesses we had. The same today: we have a witness who will be appearing before the committee today, and obviously it's open to committee members to question that witness as long as they see fit.

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC

Okay, because the issue is that committee members on all sides want to maximize the amount of time we use in all our committees so that we can get to the report as quickly as possible. I know there are other witnesses we need to hear from, and if we could maximize the committee time as much as possible.... I know that a lot of time and energy and taxpayers' money goes into bringing witnesses together and holding these meetings. I think if we could look at it....

Today, in this committee meeting, we have one witness for one hour, and again on Wednesday we have one witness for one hour. If we could go longer than one hour, or if we could get more witnesses, I think that would be appreciated.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Actually, Mr. Donnelly, the witness before this committee today was not scheduled for one hour. The notice of the meeting doesn't say one hour.

We schedule witnesses, and if the committee members have questions for witnesses that's the prerogative of the committee. Obviously we're scheduling witnesses based on their schedules, not only on the committee's schedule.

There's a bit of work that goes into planning this. There are days when we have more than one witness—no question. Sometimes the committee members don't feel there's enough time for an adequate number of questions when we do that.

I try to be fair to enable all committee members to get as many questions in as possible. It's been very rare that we've ever had to limit questions from committee members. The idea is to seek as much information as possible. There is no thought given to trying to suppress any questions or any members. There are only thoughts given as to how we can get the most out of the committee's time.

I certainly appreciate your concern and your interest. However, as I said, there is ample opportunity to ask questions. We do try to schedule witnesses to enable the committee to get the best advantage, but we also have to take into consideration the witnesses' schedules and what that allows.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC

Again, if we could keep in mind to maximize the committee's time as much as possible.... Knowing that we could go two or three rounds in questions is helpful for today. That's good to know.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Mr. Donnelly, as I know you are well aware, the clerk generally circulates and asks committee members whether they have any further questions. We go until committee members have no further questions. That's never been an issue.

I'm actually quite surprised to hear you're pleased we have ample time for questions, because there's never been any limit on questions.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC

Maybe I could finish by clarifying that I absolutely respect your chairing. I know you've done a great job. I'm not calling into question the chairing; it's the number of witnesses we need to get through and maximizing the committee time we have. Sometimes it's one witness, and one hour is ample. However, I know we do have a number of other witnesses we want to hear from. The second hour of today would have been good. The second hour of Wednesday would also have been good.

I know we have to accommodate schedules. I realize we had to cancel a meeting due to votes. I realize there are extenuating circumstances. But when we do have the opportunity to schedule as many witnesses as we can, we should take advantage of that.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I appreciate that. Thank you very much.

Mr. MacAulay.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

What is the schedule, and how many more witnesses do we have on this closed containment?

I don't want to tie you up too much with questions, but I'm wondering, is this forever, or is it going to come to an end?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

We have one witness pending on Wednesday. Following that we have the delegation from Norway, on Monday. Following that we have the travel the committee has scheduled, and then we have one more group coming in following our travel.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

That ties it up, Mr. Chairman.

I must also indicate that I have a great appreciation for your ability to chair this committee.

3:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I appreciate that, Mr. MacAulay. You're making me blush. Thank you.

Mr. Toone.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Mr. Chair, I'd also like to congratulate you on your choice of residence. I think Saint John is a beautiful place.

That said, I beg the committee's indulgence to support some of the people back home. I'd like to present a notice of motion: that because the evidence demonstrates that the Canadian seal hunt is conducted humanely and sustainably, the Standing Committee of Fisheries and Oceans reaffirms its support for the Canadian seal industry.

I have copies, if anybody wants one.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Please supply it to the clerk.

Mr. Toone, the motion you've given notice of is identical to the notice of motion that was supplied by Mr. Leef on February 9, 2012. Because the motion is the same, to be frank, we cannot entertain your notice of motion.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

If you would indulge me, my understanding is that the notice of motion is receivable. If it had already been voted on, then it wouldn't be receivable. Since it hasn't been voted on, we can receive it. I'm offering 48 hours' notice, and I'd like to vote on it on Wednesday.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Sorry, you're correct, Mr. Toone. You can indeed provide notice of motion. Because of the similarity of the motions, if Mr. Leef brings his motion forward today or before you do, he can move his first. You're providing 48 hours' notice, so he can move his beforehand. You said you'd like to have your motion voted on. The motion would be moved at that time, not voted. It would be debated at that time.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

You've provided your notice of motion; thank you.

Sorry about the delay, Mr. Roth. Thank you for joining us today in our proceedings on closed containment aquaculture. If you hear me interjecting, Mr. Roth, please don't be offended. It's only in the interest of ensuring fairness and trying to get as many questions and answers in as possible.

Mr. Roth, whenever you're ready the floor is yours.

3:45 p.m.

Dr. Myron Roth Industry Specialist, Aquaculture and Seafood, Policy and Industry Competitiveness Branch, British Columbia Ministry of Agriculture, Government of British Columbia

Okay. Can everyone hear me?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Yes, we can.

3:45 p.m.

Industry Specialist, Aquaculture and Seafood, Policy and Industry Competitiveness Branch, British Columbia Ministry of Agriculture, Government of British Columbia

Dr. Myron Roth

I'd like to thank the committee for the invitation to contribute to your study of closed containment salmon aquaculture. I appreciate the opportunity and privilege to address our parliamentarians in Ottawa. I also appreciate the fact that we can do this by video conference, which has been very convenient for me.

As you know, my name is Myron Roth. I'm a fish biologist and have worked in the field of aquaculture for over 20 years. I have a B.Sc. in zoology from the University of British Columbia and a Ph.D. from the University of Sterling in Scotland, where I studied the control of sea lice on salmon farms. My areas of expertise include salmon production systems and biotechnology, fish pathology, and the development, evaluation, and regulation of veterinary drugs, vaccines, and pesticides used in aquaculture. Through my work, which has included positions with a salmon farming company in Canada and an international pharmaceutical company and the Government of British Columbia, I have direct experience working with the salmon aquaculture industries on both coasts of Canada and in Scotland, Norway, Ireland, and Chile.

Currently I'm the industry specialist for aquaculture and seafood for the British Columbia Ministry of Agriculture. In this role I provide technical expertise to B.C.'s aquaculture industry. As a subject matter expert for aquaculture working closely with the industry and the research community, I also provide technical advice to the executive in the ministry as well as other ministries within the B.C. government and external government agencies. A function of my position is identifying opportunities and constraints facing the aquaculture industry and developing solutions to address both. Closed containment aquaculture for salmon and other species is recognized as an opportunity for growth of the B.C. aquaculture industry. As such, I have spent a great deal of time over the last couple of years working on this particular file.

In the interest of time, I will briefly outline the current regulatory framework from a provincial perspective that applies to closed containment aquaculture. Before I do, I'd like to define closed containment aquaculture as we see it. Currently we use the Canadian Science Advisory Secretariat definition, which states:

Closed containment is a term used to describe a range of technologies that attempt to restrict and control interactions between farmed fish and the external aquatic environment with the goal of minimizing impacts and creating greater control over factors in aquaculture production.

In essence, what this definition says is that closed containment systems cover a range of technologies from ocean-based systems that afford partial containment to land-based recirculating aquaculture systems that potentially provide complete containment. To illustrate this, I've forwarded an illustration to the committee; hopefully you have that on file. Basically, what it shows is that there are many different types of systems within a continuum, with each providing more and more containment. While many systems fit within this broad definition, I will restrict my comments to two: ocean-based solid wall systems and land-based recirculating aquaculture systems, or what we commonly refer to as RAS, because these two systems represent the prominent contenders for advancing closed containment aquaculture in B.C. at this time.

Prior to December 2010, aquaculture operations were regulated jointly by the provincial and the federal governments here in B.C. This arrangement was facilitated by a memorandum of understanding between the two, outlining the roles and responsibilities to be undertaken by both. The province developed a regulatory framework principally under the provincial Fisheries Act and the Environmental Management Act. In brief, the province was responsible for issuing aquaculture licences, tenures for crown land, and regulating discharges from finfish farms, both ocean-based and land-based.

As I’m sure the committee is well aware, in February 2009 the B.C. Supreme Court ruled that marine finfish aquaculture was a fishery and therefore the constitutional responsibility of the federal government. As a result, Justice Hinkson struck down parts of the provincial Fisheries Act, Farm Practices Protection (Right to Farm) Act, the aquaculture regulation pertaining to finfish aquaculture, and the entirety of the finfish aquaculture waste control regulation. This decision applied to all marine finfish aquaculture in the province but expressly did not apply to the cultivation of marine plants. Moreover, and relevant to today’s discussion, the decision did not directly address freshwater aquaculture or land-based aquaculture.

Following this decision, the provincial government announced that it would no longer regulate the operational activities of shellfish and freshwater aquaculture. It would leave management of the entire sector, with the exception of marine plants, to Fisheries and Oceans Canada. As a result of these changes, which took effect in December 2010, the province no longer regulates finfish and shellfish aquaculture, with the exception of labour and licensing matters. It also continues to issue crown land tenures used to site aquaculture installations under the authority of the provincial Land Act. Where land-based systems are concerned, legislation administered by the B.C. Ministry of the Environment pertaining to water use--that's water licences under the Water Act and waste discharge permits under the Environmental Management Act--still apply.

In all situations, aquaculture operations still require a B.C. aquaculture licence, as the B.C. Fisheries Act requires a licence to carry on the business of aquaculture. So that's essentially a business licence.

Overall, I think the new regulatory framework is working well, although there is always room for improvement. There continues to be a good working relationship between the provincial and federal governments. This is facilitated by the new Canada-British Columbia agreement on aquaculture management, which was signed in 2010.

Ocean-based systems located on crown land require a crown land tenure issued by the province and an aquaculture licence issued by Fisheries and Oceans Canada. Additional considerations include permitting under the Navigable Waters Protection Act, and assessment under the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act. In general, operating parameters follow those used by the province prior to the Hinkson decision, as conditions attached to the aquaculture licence issued by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. That would be for ocean-based systems.

Land-based systems present a somewhat different situation, since the Pacific aquaculture regulations under the Fisheries Act put in place by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to regulate the industry apply to coastal and inland waters and fisheries waters. That appears to capture any aquaculture facilities in B.C., with the possible exception of land-based closed containment systems. For the most part, facilities are being located on private land. As such, they would not require a crown land tenure but would require an aquaculture licence issued by Fisheries and Oceans.

As it has done for ocean-based systems and all other types of aquaculture licences held under the federal Fisheries Act, Fisheries and Oceans has developed licence templates that detail the various licence conditions applied to the type of licence and the species being cultured.

Freshwater aquaculture licence conditions defer to previous provincial requirements for waste discharge. Discharge permits are issued by the provincial ministry of environment on a case-by-case basis. This has so far worked reasonably well. In situations where the facility is located on federal land, such as the Namgis facility, the province has no jurisdiction, so a different regulatory path is followed.

In these situations, Fisheries and Oceans defers to Environment Canada to set standards for effluent discharge. As I understand it, the issue is that Environment Canada considers any discharge to fish habitat a deleterious substance under section 36 of the Fisheries Act, which is not allowed unless proven to be safe. Environment Canada is therefore reluctant to issue discharge permits with specific conditions.

Recirculating aquaculture systems have been in place in B.C. for some time, as all the major salmon farming companies use this technology to grow smolts. However, another condition of the freshwater licence that applies to salmon hatcheries for marine grow-out requires the licence-holder to meet the receiving environment standards found in the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment water quality index. This means that hatcheries are required to monitor the water quality of ground and surface waters upstream and downstream from their facilities. These standards are based on common reference values and are not location-specific.

It is my understanding that in many cases baseline values are unknown and that many receiving waters may already exceed the standards before any inputs reach them. What this suggests to me is that there is an opportunity to improve the regulatory framework with respect to effluent from closed containment systems as well as at land-based freshwater aquaculture facilities. As an aside, I suspect that where effluent standards are concerned, this issue also extends to marine net pens. I know that Fisheries and Oceans is aware of these issues and is currently working to address them.

In closing, while my comments have been brief, I hope I have provided some insight into the current regulatory framework for closed containment aquaculture in B.C. and a couple of regulatory issues that represent grey areas. I am confident that ongoing work and collaboration among the various government agencies involved will resolve these issues as we move forward.

Nonetheless, I do wish to impress upon the committee that time is of the essence. Given the capital cost of closed containment systems, which are prohibitively high, investors need to be confident that the regulatory system in place affords a level of business certainty and security. Without strong investor confidence that projects will proceed on a timely basis, it will be difficult for the province not only to attract investment for the development of closed containment technologies but to retain investment in B.C. for the existing aquaculture infrastructure and industry.

I also feel that given the dollars involved where closed containment is concerned, the mandate to salmon farmers and all aquaculturists should be to reduce impacts rather than to use specific technologies.

I'll close with that and I'll take any questions you have.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you very much, Mr. Roth. I appreciate your comments.

We'll go to questions at this point, with Mr. Allen.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Roth, thank you very much for being here with us today.

I'd like to start my first question with the last sentence in your statement today. You said that the mandate to salmon farmers and all aquaculturists should be to reduce impacts rather than to use specific technologies. We've heard a lot of testimony, given the economics of going to closed containment RAS systems and the significant amount of additional biomass that would have to be in a closed containment system. Are you suggesting that maybe it should be a technology-neutral solution going forward, and we shouldn't necessarily run to closed pen aquaculture?