Evidence of meeting #7 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ceta.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Bevan  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Nadia Bouffard  Acting Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Tim Angus  Acting Director General of External Relations, International Trade and Market, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
John Campbell  Director, Aquaculture Policy and Regulatory Initiatives, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

December 5th, 2013 / 3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I'll call this meeting to order.

I'm sure Mr. MacAulay will join us. We might as well get started with the presentation first.

Mr. Bevan, thank you and all of your associates with you, for coming back again today. I certainly look forward to the discussion today. I really do appreciate your taking the time out of your schedule to be here.

Mr. Bevan, I believe you have some opening remarks. I'll turn the floor over to you, and you can introduce your associates. I think most of them are quite familiar with the committee here now, but please proceed.

3:30 p.m.

David Bevan Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone.

With me today are Nadia Bouffard, Acting Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy; John Campbell, Director, Aquaculture Policy and Regulatory Initiatives; and Tim Angus, Acting Director General of External Relations, International Trade and Market.

Thanks for your invitation to appear before you today. I really appreciate it. I understand that Mr. Steve Verheul, Canada's chief negotiator on CETA, and Ana Renart, Canada's deputy chief negotiator, appeared before you in November to speak to you about the negotiations for Canada's fish component of the Canada-EU comprehensive economic and trade agreement, CETA, and we're glad to be here today to discuss this important topic with you as well.

As you know, the government announced the agreement in principle with the European Union on the Canada-EU comprehensive economic and trade agreement negotiations on October 18. Although some technical issues remain to be worked out, all the key items have been resolved with the completion of the agreement in principle.

The agreement will provide Canada with preferential market access to the European Union's 500 million consumers and $17 trillion in annual economic activity. In fact, the joint study conducted with the EU prior to the outset of the negotiations, which is available on the Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Canada website, concluded that an agreement could boost Canada's income by $12 billion annually and bilateral trade by 20% across all sectors. That's equal to creating about 80,000 jobs and increasing a family's annual income by $1,000. It's one of our more ambitious trade agreements. While the fisheries sector is only one component, the agreement will have significant benefits across the spectrum of all industries: fishing, seafood, aquaculture, and processing.

The benefit that the fish and seafood sector will derive from this agreement will depend, of course, on the ability of the industry to take advantage of the opportunities. The 20% figure outlined in the joint study should therefore be considered as a starting point in trying to assess what potential this agreement will have and what the benefits will be. I can say, however, that we export about 377 types of fish and seafood products to the EU, and tariffs on 360 of those will be eliminated upon the agreement's entering into force. That's expected by 2015.

The tariffs on the other 17 products will be phased out in the following three, five, or seven years, but it's not necessary to wait for those time periods before benefits accrue. If it's a three-year timeline, the tariffs will drop by one-third in the first year, two-thirds by the second, and a full drop by the third. The benefits will accrue quickly once the agreement is brought into force. The reductions and tariffs will translate into savings that can be either reinvested into businesses throughout the seafood value chain to make them more competitive and innovative, or if Canadian exporters pass these savings along to potential customers, it could help them to grow their share of the European market. I think you can appreciate that if you're adding up to 20% to your bottom line, that's a benefit for anybody with a value product that's subject to tariffs now.

We export about $409 million in fish and seafood to the EU each year, of which 95% of the export value is currently subject to tariffs. On average, Canadian firms paid $45 million annually in tariffs on exports of these products during 2008 to 2012, representing 11.4% of their export value. As I said, that's not even; some products are subject to tariffs at a lower rate, while some are subject to tariffs up to 20%.

Between 2008 and 2012, we exported $13 million in sockeye salmon to the European Union and paid almost three-quarters of a million dollars in tariffs. We're going to see some benefits to that portion of the industry at the time when it comes into force. T

he reductions will equate to $25.5 million for Atlantic Canada the first year the agreement enters into force. Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador together will account for 71% of tariff savings, rising to 73% once all tariffs are phased out, while Quebec will save almost $2 million annually. Other provinces, which together exported $10 million annually during this period, will realize additional earnings and savings in the range of $1 million.

When CETA comes into force, the tariff amounts on these products will immediately decrease by 69%, to an average of $13 million per year, with annual savings of $31 million. All of these figures are based on the current exports of Canadian fish and seafood products. They don't account for the increased opportunities that CETA will provide for new or additional Canadian fish and seafood products as they hit the European markets.

On rules of origin, CETA includes liberal rules of origin that are consistent with the current federal government policies and industry practices, and this will benefit Canadian business interests. Rules of origin define products that qualify as Canadian or European under an agreement. For Canada, benefits of tariff liberalization could be realized only if Canada could succeed in negotiating liberal rules of origin.

Rules of origin allow customs authorities to determine where a product originates, or is wholly obtained, so that they can apply the relevant tariff to the product as it enters the country. These rules specify how much production processing must occur in Canada or the EU for the product to be considered from, or originating in, one of the jurisdictions. If somebody's bringing in product from another source and does processing in Canada, these rules would be very important in determining if it qualifies as a product of Canada for the purposes of application of the tariffs.

In practice, these liberal product-specific rules of origin will allow Canada to import fish from a non-party, like the United States, and enable Canadian industry to process the fish for export to the European Union under preferential tariffs granted through CETA. How this benefits Canadian industry can be shown by two examples: British Columbia, which processes Alaskan sockeye salmon; and New Brunswick, which processes Maine lobsters.

What does CETA not do?

CETA doesn't change how we control port access or how we apply the Coastal Fisheries Protection Act. CETA will not trump that. We will still have the power and authority to require that vessels entering our waters do so under the authorities of the minister. The minister will have to grant a licence for them to operate in our waters, or to transit our waters to a Canadian port. That doesn't change what's going on right now with European vessels.

As to investment licensing policies under CETA, there is no change to the Canadian policy regarding issuance of fishing licences. In Canada right now, to receive a fishing licence, the company that receives the licence must be 51% owned by Canadians. We do not issue Canadian fishing licences to foreign-controlled harvest operations. That's a long-standing policy that goes back to the 1970s. It is designed to prevent foreign companies from gaining access to our natural resources, fishing resources, through the acquisition of companies that have substantial licence-holders. A foreign company could not buy up one of our offshore fishing enterprises and then fish those licences in Canada. That will not change.

Policy is not reflected in any laws. It's part of our long-standing practices. It derives from the powers of the Fisheries Act, under which the minister has discretion in who gets a licence. That power remains in place, so the minister's discretion on licensing harvesters will remain in place under CETA. It's consistent with our powers under UNCLOS as well.

CETA will not negatively affect the sustainability of our fisheries or aquaculture sectors. The European Union has been moving very strongly in the direction of ensuring sustainability within its own areas of responsibility, and is not anxious to enter into any kind of arrangement where their position could be compromised in any other locations. Certainly, Canada will not compromise the long-term sustainability of its resources.

More specific to fisheries, Canada and the EU have committed to further cooperation on environmental issues and regional fish management organizations. We share interests with respect to NAFO, ICCAT, and other regional fish management organizations. We are committed to working collaboratively.

I would say that's reflective of what we have been doing over the last number of years. Certainly in my time with NAFO it was a collaborative arrangement with the EU in terms of moving ahead on the conservation agenda.

Regarding CETA and the seal ban, the seal ban came into place before CETA. The opposition to the EU seal ban is continuing. The CETA does not compromise our position with respect to our challenging under the WTO that the seal ban by the EU is not consistent with international trade law.

While on November 25 the WTO announced its decision and confirmed that the EU ban is discriminatory and treats Canadian seal products unfairly, they did allow that infringement on our rights to proceed based on the public's concerns in the EU regarding seal harvesting. We are committed to now appealing that process and taking it to the next level.

With that, Mr. Chair, I'll turn it over to questions.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you very much, Mr. Bevan.

We'll start our first round of questions with Mr. Leef.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of you for appearing today.

We have Canadian industry in the EU already, but this move is really going to open the field for a lot of them. Many that probably haven't been attracted to the European market are going to want to actually move into it now that tariffs and taxes are making it more favourable for them.

Is it the role of DFO, and if it is, are there any plans in place to work with industry to prepare them to take advantage of these developing markets and to get our fishing industry, which may not be quite accustomed to this huge market base, prepared for that?

3:45 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Bevan

The role of DFO, of course, is to sustainably manage the natural resources where we have that authority and responsibility. That's in the marine ecosystem and in some freshwater areas of the country.

We don't have a marketing arm anymore. That was moved to Agriculture Canada. We certainly would work with them to make sure there is an awareness of the changing landscape and to suggest to other organizations that they may wish to do that kind of education and help promote it. That's not our role, though, and it's been confirmed recently that we are the managers, not the marketers or promoters.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Will any supplemental regulatory adjustments be required? You touched on it a little with policy development, but do you foresee any future regulation development or additional oversight required in any particular field, whether that's lobster fisheries or salmon fisheries or anything of that nature, to respond to a boom?

3:45 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Bevan

If people want to change carapace sizes, for example, or if they want to change how they're prosecuting the fishery to capitalize on an economic opportunity presented by the CETA process with the European Union, we'll certainly be there to respond to that.

Generally, I think most of what's envisaged is that we will just have better access to the market that exists in the European Union. We may change at the request of fishermen, for example, if there is a way to get different lobster packages or products into the EU and that would require some changes to our regulations. We'd work with any group that wanted to do that.

I don't really foresee any significant regulatory shift to capitalize on the opportunity, but that's something that may come in the future. We're going to learn more as we play in that market more significantly. We have to certify our products going into the EU that they were sustainably caught. They want to be differentiated from anyone else's products. The products going there will have a certificate issued by DFO indicating that the product was from a legal sustainable fishery coming from Canada. People won't be able to counterfeit Canadian product, so to speak, and get it into the EU for tariffs or to take advantage of the opportunity in the market.

We're probably going to see a lot of demand for eco-labelling, as we already have. We have, I think, 23 or 24—

3:45 p.m.

Nadia Bouffard Acting Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Yes.

3:45 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Bevan

—fisheries that are subject now to Marine Stewardship Council certification. We'll probably see that kind of thing happening, so there will be a lot more demand for sustainability as EU customers demand that kind of assurance from their vendors.

That's probably the most significant one. There may be minor tweaking to management regimes to help target specific markets.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

This might be getting down into the nuts and bolts, so if you don't know offhand, it's not a problem. Is market labelling standardized and is it developed now? We have an introduction into the market to begin with, because Canadian products exist there and the sustainability logo is there, I'm sure. But as industry takes this on, if they're able to handle the uptake to the market, as big as it is there, this will be substantial.

Is that sustainability labelling unique and branded for Canada? Does it really signal that the Canadian government has invested in labelling to assure consumers over there that it is Canadian product, that it is a sustainable product, and it's recognizable? Is that getting too far into the weeds of...?

3:45 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Bevan

No. The eco-labelling is not done by the Government of Canada. It's done by the Marine Stewardship Council and other similar certification bodies. They would be well recognized labels. They're recognized because they're international. The fish that bear those labels come from a number of countries that have met the standards to convince the Marine Stewardship Council that the product is sustainable. It's not differentiated, but it is more generic and necessary in some markets to get into the higher-end markets.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

The Atlantic coast seems to be the area that's probably going to enjoy the largest initial benefits of the CETA deal in terms of fisheries. You did touch on it, but maybe you could expand on the growth potential of the Pacific region to catch on to CETA.

3:50 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Bevan

The Atlantic has products with some of the highest levels of tariffs, so that's why they're going to benefit. When you look at shrimp and other products like processed lobsters, there is a very high tariff applied to them. In B.C., the benefits will be a little bit less because the level of tariffs applied to their products is somewhat lower than the highest. High levels of tariffs are applied to some processed forms of salmon, so they'll benefit. There will be a possible benefit for smoked salmon and processed salmon.

Really, if you have a product form with a low-level tariff now, then obviously free access will mean a smaller increment than if you have a product form to which a very high level of tariff is applied. Certainly, if you're selling something with a 10% or 20% tariff, that's of huge benefit.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Mr. Leef.

Mr. Cleary.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

In Newfoundland and Labrador this trade deal is generally seen as a good trade deal. I know when I was a young journalist covering the fisheries for years that shrimp tariffs, for example, into the EU were incredibly detrimental to our seafood industry. We have the association representing seafood processors, we have the Fish, Food and Allied Workers union representing fishermen, plant workers, and trawlermen, we also have the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and the Kathy Dunderdale administration all behind this trade deal.

On the one hand, we've been asked to give up minimum processing requirements for a whole host of species. We have provincial legislation, as you know, that basically outlines minimum processing for various species which had to be adhered to. Those minimum processing requirements will be lifted, which some critics have a problem with, but most people generally, across the board, are in favour of that. At the same time we're getting reports out of the European Union that this deal is being billed as good for European processors because they will get access to Canadian fish, to Newfoundland and Labrador fish, which makes some people in my province of Newfoundland and Labrador wary.

A compensation package has been announced to the tune of $400 million: $120 million from the province and $280 million from the Government of Canada. It's been described as a compensation package. I've also heard it described as a way for the province, the industry, to prepare for access into the EU market. Would you describe the $280 million as a compensation package or as a package to prepare for access into the EU? The second part to this question is, do you have a breakdown on what the $280 million will be spent on specifically?

3:50 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Bevan

On the latter, I don't. DFO is not involved in the administration of that fund and it hasn't been involved in the discussions leading up to the announcement. It's really outside of our—

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Which department is that?

3:50 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Bevan

The Department of Fisheries has not been involved in the—

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

But which department is?

3:50 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Bevan

Foreign Affairs and Trade, ACOA, and obviously the province. The province must have had some kind of calculation that the fund was necessary, if it went to the federal government to negotiate it.

Unfortunately, I don't have any of that information, nor do I think anyone here does because DFO has not been directly engaged in the discussions leading up to the creation or the administration of the fund.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Okay, that would be handled by international trade. The calculations of how to come up with the $280-million figure from the federal government's end would have come from international trade.

3:55 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Bevan

They would have responded, I presume, to a position put on the table by the province.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

You also couldn't say whether this would be.... In terms of your adjective, would this be a “compensation” package, or is this a “tee-up” package?

3:55 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Bevan

Again, I don't know the answer to that.

We were not aware of it until the announcement took place. We haven't been involved in any of the lead-up to it. We are not really in a position to tell you if it's a compensation, a preparation, or what the nature of the use of the fund would be.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

I ask this question because I don't have the answer. Is that unusual, the fact that the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans isn't involved in a $280-million package for the Newfoundland and Labrador fisheries?