Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 5th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Moving to the opposition side, we'll go to Mr. Martin and Mr. Cullen. This is a five-minute round.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much to all for being here today.

I have one question and one request. First, by most accounts, as we've heard before, the involvement or the mucky paws of Eritrea and Ethiopia in the events taking place within Somalia have been quite destructive. Are there any levers that can be applied to both Eritrea and Ethiopia to stop their being a negative influence on the events taking place in Somalia?

Second, to Ms. Kostiuk, perhaps you would to send to the committee information on the moneys that have been disbursed to World Vision, Oxfam, MSF, the partners that you have on the ground, and the reports that those groups have given to CIDA on what they've done with those resources.

I think Mr. Cullen has a question as well.

Thank you very much.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to my colleague Keith Martin and to the chair of the committee for reviewing this, and to the officials. I had hoped to have a question for my colleagues Alan Tonks and Judy Sgro, but there may not be sufficient time.

First of all, I'm glad to see that we're party now to the international contact group, but as you pointed out, we have a very special relationship in Canada with Somalia. We have the largest Somali diaspora. I'm told that the largest community from Africa in Canada is from Somalia. And if you look long term, there are many ways that we could work with Somalia, with their natural resources and in economic terms as well, but I realize that's some ways away.

We know that Somalia is a failed state. I'd like to suggest that our “watching brief” strategy of the federal government, if I could call it that, is a failed strategy.

If we go back to the first transitional national government many years ago, it seems to me there was an opportunity there for the world and Canada as a player to offer some tangible support to that first government. It was not perfect. You know, neither was the second government. And there's always this concern that we're waiting for the perfect solution, the elegant government, and there's concern about warlords and representation. I don't think in that part of the world it's going to happen. Somalia, hopefully, will get its act together and have another government, and what we should be doing in Canada, in the western world, is showing some tangible support early for that new government so that the people can see that there's a reason to proceed.

If we all stand by and take a watching brief, we know we're doomed to failure.

Alan, do you have a question?

[Alan Tonks, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

That was my question, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Tonks and Mr. Cullen.

Mr. Angell, please.

[David Angell]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

With regard to the first question, about levers that can be used to compel cooperation on the part of Eritrea and Ethiopia, certainly the record with regard to the implementation of the decisions of the Eritrea-Ethiopia Boundary Commission suggests that there are few levers indeed. The Secretary General of the United Nations, in a report dated January 23, conveyed the conclusion of the EEBC that the parties had made no progress towards the implementation of the delineation decision announced by the commission in 2002.

That's quite an extraordinary situation. We're in the odd situation now that the United Nations Security Council yesterday or the day before issued a statement to the press decrying the lack of cooperation by Eritrea with the UN peace support operation that straddles the border, a peace support operation that no longer has access to fuel in Eritrea, that has had the composition of its force influenced by Eritrea, and that has declared that now the UN Security Council and the UN Secretary General have demanded cooperation by Eritrea with UNMEE with the threat of withdrawing it, and that's quite an extraordinary circumstance.

With regard to watching briefs, there is a sense now, with the new government headed by Nur Hassan Hussein, that the time has come to give the transitional federal government support. Certainly that is the message that the UN special envoy is conveying. But the government took office only in November. This is an extremely new development. I think countries that participate in the work of the international contact group have taken notice of that message from Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah. We will have to see whether there is continued progress, but the message from Ould-Abdallah is that this is now finally the time to provide support.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Angell. To clarify, you said there is a recognition of that government, and the reality is that there is some decision or movement to support--

[David Angell]

Mr. Chairman, there's no recognition of the government. The practice of Canada and I think of all other states is to recognize states, not governments. But there is a cooperation with the government and there is a practical recognition that this government is trying to do things that may well finally be conducive to success. So there's hope for the success of this government.

But the issue of political recognition is a totally separate issue, and the practice of Canada and all other states is to recognize states, and not governments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Angell.

Mr. Obhrai.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is a very serious situation down in the Horn of Africa. One wouldn't like to play partisan politics. My colleague here was trying to smack my government for doing nothing, considering the fact that we were there for 13 years and his government didn't do anything.

As a matter of fact, this crisis in Somalia has been coming for a longer period of time; the failed state issues don't immediately just happen. There were talks going on in Nairobi all the time between warring factions to bring them back together into this transition government before they moved into Ethiopia. During the period of time when all these talks were going on in Nairobi, in trying to get all these parties to the table to come to an agreement, I'm not sure whether the previous government did issue any instructions that Canada would be there to support them. I don't know whether we were there or this government was there to push to bring all these warring factors back to the table when they were talking in Kenya.

Right now, of course, considering the situation in Nairobi, I may say, they're back in there. So this has been going on there for a very long period of time. Minus what has happened in the past, we have to look at the future, which is why I asked you about the African Union summit--you went there--and what is happening. So looking at the future, I'm as optimistic as anybody else can get about what will transpire and if this transition government will be able to maintain traction.

I'm interested in knowing from you the complicities between Puntland, Somaliland, and this area around Mogadishu. This transition government that is in Mogadishu may not have much of a say in Puntland or in Somaliland, because they are autonomous regions having their own governments. In this issue, what is your assessment, and would that whole Somaliland become one, or will they splinter into what they've splintered into right now?

[David Angell]

It certainly is the case that there is a semi-autonomous region of Somaliland and there is Puntland and I don't think the transitional federal government could make any claim to being able to administer or govern those parts of Somalia.

Somalia remains an exceptionally complex, difficult country. The transitional federal government seems to be making progress relative to previous transitional governments, but we're still a very long way from having a government that can operate with the full capacity that a government in a sovereign country that had a fully functioning government would see.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

It will be in the splinter area for a while.

[David Angell]

It will be, absolutely, sir.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We want to thank both departments for coming to our committee today. Certainly we recognize there are no easy answers to any of these, but there are a lot of significant problems, and Canada wants to be there. It's good to hear that we're doing what we can and we're involved in groups that are looking for peaceful solutions to all these different complex issues.

We are going to suspend for a few moments and then we will invite the committee to come back quickly and we will do some committee business.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right, committee, welcome back. In this second portion we'll move into our committee business.

Before we look at some of these motions, let's look at our Thursday meeting. We're in a bit of a predicament—we don't have any witnesses. We have a number of opportunities. It's up to the committee. We either decide something real quick and invite some witnesses, or we have a steering committee, which we probably should be doing.

Madame Barbot is here and so is Paul, but Bryon isn't here on Thursday. It's something to take note of. Maybe he can get back to me on this. Maybe it's something to think about for a while.

Angela, is there anything you can fill in about Thursday? The opportunity is to have at least a steering committee meeting, maybe Thursday morning sometime.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mrs. Angela Crandall]

Right. If members were available we could try to do something Thursday morning.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Ms. Barbot.

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

Could we not do this at the beginning of the committee meeting? We could take an hour to...

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Yes, we could do that. We could have a little bit of a discussion. We could probably bring the steering committee report forward to the committee in the second hour. That would mean we would have only one hour for the committee, 3:30 to 4:30. It's a possibility.

Roy?

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Mr. Chairman, now that I'm a signed-in, fully functioning member of this committee, I know that Mr. Martin would see it as remiss if I didn't raise the question about the follow-on work on Somalia. I'm wondering, I just throw this out as a possibility: it was a very good briefing today from the Department of Foreign Affairs and CIDA, but I think another follow-on panel with members of the diaspora and relevant NGOs would bring a unique perspective to this. I would encourage the committee to do it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

The problem there, Mr. Cullen, is that no members have brought forward any witnesses for it. Again, that's the problem.

We as a table, the clerk and the researchers, invite witnesses on the list brought by committee members. Unfortunately, none has come, so it would be too late.

Mr. Obhrai.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Mr. Chair, on the issue of what Roy Cullen just said, I know you're trying to fill up Thursday, but I was just wondering, in light of the crisis in Kenya, in Nairobi, the motion that we've put forward here would send a strong signal that Canadians are concerned about the events in Kenya.

I was wondering if I could get from the committee unanimous consent to move this motion right to the top for a quick discussion, a quick passage, so that it can be tabled in Parliament as quickly as possible. We would like this message to be sent straight back to Nairobi, Kenya, so that the Kenyans understand that Canada is concerned.

I'm asking this because the problem, the violence, is happening right now. Kofi Annan's peace mediation requires a diplomatic push. I can tell you that the Minister of Foreign Affairstalked to President Kibaki today about what Canada can do. I think we as a committee, as parliamentarians, should look at this motion quickly.

I honestly don't see any member having difficulty with the motion, so I was wondering if I could have unanimous consent on the matter.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Obhrai.

It's up to the committee members. This motion is in order. First of all, wouldn't we need unanimous consent for Mr. Obhrai to speak to it?

Mr. Goldring's mother passed away. He is the one who brought this motion forward and he isn't here to speak on it. I know you're doing this with his permission, but we do need unanimous consent even to have Mr. Obhrai bring the motion forward on the part of Mr. Goldring.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Do we have unanimous consent?