Evidence of meeting #15 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was crimea.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
4:05 p.m.
Chairholder, Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, Chair of Ukrainian Studies
Yes.
Taras has made excellent points. The army actually last week made a critical intervention—that is, a verbal and non-physical intervention—saying that they were not intervening in what was a political crisis or a political conflict.
That also was very significant—
4:05 p.m.
Research Associate, University of Alberta, Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies
A game-changer.
4:05 p.m.
Chairholder, Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, Chair of Ukrainian Studies
—yes, a game-changer, in the eventual collapse of the regime.
But Taras is talking as though we're close to a post-conflict situation, whereas there's a possibility that the military may actually invade eastern Ukraine, the way we're going.
4:05 p.m.
Chairholder, Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, Chair of Ukrainian Studies
The question is what will hurt, what will cause pain in people who are actually making these decisions that are breaking international law and international conventions? That's a....
The economic sanctions that are being discussed using the Iran model apparently can hardly work regarding Russia, just because of the structure of its exports—unless Europe decides to live without Russian gas, which would have an enormous economic cost for Europe.
But inasmuch as we, meaning the international community, have talked about the issue of personal sanctions.... That was on the agenda for three months in Maidan, and was finally used at the end. Why are we not using it against Russia, at least? Because the same contradictions, which others would call hypocrisy, apply. That is, the discourse is all aggressively anti-western. It's all about western conspiracies. But their money, their children, their houses, and their vacations are all in the west, not in Russia. That was the reality in Ukraine. Actually, we have reports that in Switzerland and Austria, post-Maidan or not, they're freezing and really going after the assets.
So doing that is certainly a first step.
4:10 p.m.
Chairholder, Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, Chair of Ukrainian Studies
Yes, beginning with the president.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
4:10 p.m.
Chairholder, Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, Chair of Ukrainian Studies
No, against Putin and his political....
4:10 p.m.
Chairholder, Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, Chair of Ukrainian Studies
Because the sanctions with Ukraine, even if Yanukovych is gone—not in his mind but he's gone from political reality—are still going on actually, but personal sanctions against Russian elites....
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON
Can I get in one other question? I apologize for the slip of the tongue there.
What other kinds of assistance could Canada and its allies be providing at this time?
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
4:10 p.m.
Research Associate, University of Alberta, Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies
Pretty much everything.
The U.S. has the Magnitsky bill. Surely, it's high time for Canada and western Europe to have the same kind of bill. This bill is highly detailed in its sanctions against Russian leaders.
4:10 p.m.
Chairholder, Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, Chair of Ukrainian Studies
We're facing an unprecedented situation. I'm here and I'm sitting in a parliamentary hearing, and I don't want to say things that are completely phantasmagoric, but basically, we're facing a scenario where Russia may be intent on destroying the Ukrainian state by invading eastern Ukraine. That's the Czechoslovakia scenario in 1938. I'm just pinching myself and looking at developments. This is essentially what could be in the works.
What could western states, including Canada, possibly do? Certainly, the measures have to be out of the ordinary, so extraordinary. I don't have a ready answer to it, but this is an extremely grave situation, a situation where there is only one decision-maker in Russia. We have a president who has absolute power.
Chancellor Merkel from Germany talked to Mr. Putin yesterday and reported that she feels he is disconnected from reality and lives in another world. It's one chancellor talking to a president who is sending an army to a state that is recognized by the international community. That is extremely preoccupying.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
That's all the time we have.
We're going to start our second round of five minutes with questions and answers.
Ms. Brown.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Thank you, Chair. Thank you, gentlemen.
It's almost strange sitting here in a parliamentary committee when we know that things are changing in Ukraine by the minute. Even as we sit here and have this discussion, we know that things may be taking place there that we are unaware of at the moment and will find out when we finish this committee. It is exceedingly concerning.
Canada has been present in Ukraine for quite some time from a development perspective. Ukraine is the only country of focus that Canada has in Europe for development dollars. We've been there helping with judicial reform. We've helped with youth justice issues. We've helped with capacity-building in the civil service.
How do you see those investments helping on a path forward for Ukraine? Do you think there is merit in the things that we've already done in helping Ukraine after this is over? I'm being positive that Ukraine is going to retain the integrity of its borders.
4:10 p.m.
Chairholder, Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, Chair of Ukrainian Studies
But of course that kind of assistance is not measurable. What we could observe during Maidan, 10 years after the Orange Revolution, is the rise of a civic community. This was a truly civic uprising. What does it mean? Initially it was a civic mobilization and then it turned into an uprising as a reaction to violence. But essentially the main claim was “we want to live in a normal state”. For normality they would say Europe, but essentially it also means Canada and the United States in how they understand it, and that's without illusion that Europe or Canada are perfect states by all means. But in terms of “we want a government that's accountable; we want a government that doesn't steal”, they also want that here. They want to have a commission like in Quebec to try to clean up the mess. There is a normative understanding that this is what needs to be done.
You had that kind of mobilization that went so far that it provoked the government to reveal its ugliest face to the point of resorting to live ammunition, which in terms of reacting to a civic uprising hadn't been seen in Europe since Solidarity in the early 1980s. It was quite exceptional.
I think Canadian assistance, European assistance, the educational exchanges and so forth, have certainly cumulatively played a positive role. We hear now that we have three graduates from Mohyla university, which is in partnership with so many Canadian and European institutions including my own, who are now in the cabinet of ministers.
So in that sense it's immeasurable. We've seen the growth of, clearly, a civil society that could stand up to autocracy, but there is a long way ahead.
Perhaps regionalism.... We shouldn't use the word “federalism” because words are associated with a particular, very lasting perception. If you say federalism in Ukraine, they think Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, and the Soviet Union. It will never work. But without saying the word just in terms of regional representations, autonomy, and so forth, Canada can certainly contribute because that's our history, and not just a Quebec perspective, but western Canada and so forth. That would certainly be a particular contribution.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Do you see a role for the diaspora in Canada to be of assistance in this process going forward?
4:15 p.m.
Research Associate, University of Alberta, Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies
One of the best investigative journalists in Ukraine, who is currently based in Washington, D.C., on a grant, named Sergii Leshchenko is talking about the need to, like I think with the Italian and Polish diasporas, give them the right to vote and to participate, because he thinks they would have a different approach to politics and a cleaner approach, a good governance approach. They have grown up and socialized in a different environment. I think that's certainly one.
Beyond that, I think going back to your previous question—and I agree completely with Dominique—the people who are on the streets in many ways, like in the Arab Spring, are looking for dignity. They felt their leaders treated them with contempt, so there has to be the rebuilding of a new contract between elites who are accountable, who are not above the law....
Ukrainian elites like Soviet elites were above the law. I think the key institution from which everything flows is the rule of law. There was a little bit of rule of law prior to Yanukovych. He destroyed it completely.
I know colleagues in America who are doing similar things like judicial reform in Ukraine. I'm wondering whether it's time to move from putting plasters on the old system to dismantling the old system and starting again. The prosecutor's office, is it reformable? I don't think so. It's 18,000 people who are useless. They are useless, corrupt, and bloated. I think you are better just to start completely anew.
I think if you are going to put money in—because money's limited for every government—I would say just start again. Don't keep putting little plasters on this old Soviet institution.
4:15 p.m.
Chairholder, Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, Chair of Ukrainian Studies
I would say that—
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Sorry. That's all the time we have. Maybe we can get you in as a follow-up.
Madame Laverdière, and Madame Latendresse.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
I have a quick question. After that, my colleague, Ms. Latendresse, would like to ask a question.
We have all heard the reports about the ultimatum from the Russian authorities calling for all weapons to be handed over by 5 o'clock tomorrow morning. In your opinion, how will that play out?