Foreign Affairs Committee on March 3rd, 2014

[Eugene Czolij]

Absolutely.

I'm a lawyer, and usually we're not allowed to ask questions to which the witness can only say yes or no because it's so obvious, but I guess that rule does not apply here.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Eugene Czolij]

Clearly, the biggest risk, the only risk, is a blatant violation of international obligations by a Russian president who is clearly imperialistic and clearly has never accepted Ukraine as an independent country. He thought that he could orchestrate through financial control and through President Yanukovych. As I've said in my presentation, that geopolitical dream has been shattered, and he, as any leader who resorts to anything to achieve his goals, has turned to the military to settle the issue in a forceful way.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Duncan, you have seven minutes, please.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Father, thank you for your heartfelt testimony.

Mr. Czolij, I think you've made very specific recommendations to this committee and we'd be grateful if you could table them.

Mr. Czolij, if I may, I'll begin with you. In the opinion of the Ukrainian World Congress, is there anything Canada and its allies can do to pressure Russia to withdraw?

[Eugene Czolij]

I think Canada played a pivotal role during the three months when the Maidan was fighting a corrupt authoritarian regime in Ukraine.

I would be looking for Canada to take the same leadership role in pushing the agenda forward. In terms of that agenda forward, as I always say, when you're speaking to a thug, you need to speak a thug's language. The only way the situation in Ukraine changed was when sanctions were threatened. Then the country started to make the necessary steps in order to implement them. I think the same thing needs to be done in this critical situation.

When somebody blatantly violates international obligations, it is not sufficient to deplore and to condemn. Concrete actions must be imposed immediately in order to make not only the president of Russia but also his entourage feel that there are serious consequences to this type of violation. That is the only thing that will make them change their minds or de-escalate the conflict.

Canada can play a lead role in pushing that agenda forward.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I think you've answered my next question, but I'll ask it anyway, just so you can reaffirm this.

What, if anything, can be done to deter Russian aggression that is not already being done?

[Eugene Czolij]

I think basically it is to move that agenda forward, one that goes beyond just declarations. Declarations had to be made, they were made, and now I think we need sanctions. We need trade sanctions and we need an immediate monitoring mission in Ukraine on the ground.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Czolij.

We know that Ukraine has asked for our monetary assistance. Have there been any developments there in terms of the IMF?

[Eugene Czolij]

My understanding is that the European Union is tabling an offer of a short-term package and a long-term package. I recall that last week Elmar Brok, the chair of the foreign affairs committee in the European Parliament, stated that a package of about 20 billion euros would be put together. I know that the United States is preparing a package.

So yes, this issue is being discussed. To my liking, unfortunately, the discussion is a very lengthy discussion, whereas immediate action, including immediate financial assistance, is needed in order to allow this new government to address the issues, to avoid an economic collapse, and to implement serious reforms.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

You said “immediate”. How much, by when, and what would you like to see Canada doing?

[Eugene Czolij]

I think there are discussions. I don't want to put a number for Canada, because there are discussions between the EU, the United States, and the Ukrainian authorities in order to put a package together. The only thing I'd say at this point would be for Canada to push for the discussion to be accelerated and for some substantial money to be put on the table immediately.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Can both of you talk to what the Ukrainians are facing right now, both in Crimea and in the east and west of Ukraine?

[Father Ihor Okhrimtchouk]

Right now it's overwhelming fear.

Number one, there is an information vacuum in Ukraine. Mr. Czolij was talking about where else Canada can help. Hopefully the situation will be resolved quickly, or at least painlessly, for all sides without the sacrifice of human life. But really, when you think about it, one thing would be to help coordinate and create a country-wide television network that would be able to give out signals on what the parliament was doing, and so on and so forth. Hopefully it would be a transparent one.

That's one thing. What else are people facing? I think fear is one of those things that are probably the best in determining...in that, with fear, people are determined to defend themselves. We see it in the eastern regions. My cousin lives actually in Donetsk, where you would say it's very pro-Russian. His wife is Russian. They're both saying, “This is our land. We don't want to go anywhere. We don't feel threatened. We had a small business. We were doing okay. Why are we pushed to believe that we are persecuted?” It's stuff like that.

So there is hope, and also if the attack is to occur, I do believe there will be as large a fury as there will be large human losses.

[Eugene Czolij]

Mr. Chair, if I may add just one sentence to this. Over the last three months, various high-level officials from various countries have been in Ukraine or in Euromaidan, and have told Ukrainians, “We are with you”.

I think a lot of Ukrainians in Ukraine want to see those words being transformed into concrete action and concrete assistance today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's all the time we have.

We're going to start our second round.

Ms. Grewal.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I would also like to thank each one of you for being here today. The situation in Ukraine, as all of us know, is really deeply troubling, and our government stands with our allies in condemning the actions of President Vladimir Putin.

It would appear that President Putin is using the current turmoil as an opportunity to take control of Crimea. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Crimea has been a source of tensions between Ukraine and Russia.

Could you tell us anything about Crimea, its ethnic makeup, its constitutional position with Ukraine as an autonomous republic, its current government? From media reports, it sounds as though the Russians may be welcomed with open arms by a large part of the Crimean population.

In your opinion, would this be accurate?

[Father Ihor Okhrimtchouk]

I'm sorry. Could you repeat the last question? I didn't hear.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

From various media sources it sounds as though the Russians may be welcomed by part of the Crimean population. In your opinion, is it accurate that the Russians will be welcomed with open arms by the Crimean population?

[Father Ihor Okhrimtchouk]

I'll start answering. Mr. Czolij is more astute when it comes to the politics and the polity there.

When you think about the makeup of Crimea, I'm not quite sure of the numbers, but over 50% of the people consider themselves to be Russian. Then another 20%, or close to 20%, would be Tatars and another 20% to 25% would be ethnic Ukrainians, or of other descent. The borders are always kind of shifting. If my mother is Russian and my father is Ukrainian, sometimes I am Ukrainian and sometimes I am Russian. I'm not talking about myself but generally, the statistics.

Crimea, when you think about it from the standpoint of Ukraine, is a very heavily subsidized region of Ukraine. The capital city is 80% subsidized by the federal government and the entire peninsula of Crimea is subsidized about 65% by the government. It's interesting that this had been used against Ukraine by the eastern regions, which maintain that it's western Ukraine that is mainly subsidized, but there are a lot of subsidies that go there.

You were asking whether there are any loyalties to Russia. Yes, there are. It would be wrong to deny it. Some 60% of the people are Russians, so there is strong sentiment. However, the elected officials of Crimea have always said that they belong to Ukraine, that they are part of Ukraine. They have autonomy, and I think the Ukrainian parliament had tabled a motion for wider autonomy for Crimea.

When the last government came to power, the gentleman who right now represents himself as president, only got, what, 4% of the votes in the last Crimean election. But he is known as the one who embezzles lots of funds, so of course for him, a stabilization of the region, supported by Russian forces, would be appropriate.

Quite often, the card of Ukrainian nationalism, if I may put it that way, is played in Crimea, and the reason for that is that Crimea has all 158 channels from Russia and only selected channels from Ukraine. Before events in Maidan, the media was controlled mainly by the Russian president. So there is no objective opinion. Whatever the media feeds you, that's what you believe is the truth.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, that's all the time we have, Ms. Grewal.

I'm going to have to move over to Madame Latendresse.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Like all my colleagues, I would also like to thank both of you for coming here today.

I will start with a question to Mr. Okhrimtchouk.

We are interested in knowing what kind of presence the Ukrainian Orthodox Church has in Crimea.

In light of the recent events, what kind of impact has the church experienced?

[Father Ihor Okhrimtchouk]

As I said before, there are three branches of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. In Crimea, which is a large territory, there are only two Ukrainian Orthodox Churches of the Kyivan Patriarchate, which is—if I might simplify it—a pro-western-oriented democratic church. However, the majority of churches, over 90%, are Ukrainian Orthodox of Moscow Patriarchate.

I have to say in their defence that when the events started, there was a picture showing the Ukrainian Orthodox of Moscow Patriarch Kirill standing in front of the Ukrainian military regiment in front of the doors and telling people to stop—with the cross and everything else. He was saying, “Please stop, we cannot afford any bloodshed”.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

All right.

I also have a question for both of you on....

I will ask it in French.

Some are saying that the current military intervention in Ukraine was apparently orchestrated and planned a long time ago. Several people are saying that this occupation could not have been organized within 24 hours.

Do you think Russia was planning to use its armed forces in Crimea a lot longer ago than what we may think? Are they planning to go a lot further than Crimea?

[Eugene Czolij]

Your analysis of the situation is correct. It is impossible to plan that type of military movement within 24 hours. Clearly it was planned a while ago. I think that the Russian president did not want to send any armed forces during the Olympic games. As several predicted, as soon as the closing ceremonies were over he once again showed his true colours.

I would like to add something else. This is often being described as a conflict between Russians and the Ukrainians, or between the extremists and all the others. I think that the real reason the Russian president sent in the army was because of what happened in the Maidan. Everything started with a political issue, the direction a country was going to take, but it turned into a will on the part of the population to live in a democratic country without abuse nor corruption. Whether they live in an eastern, western, northern or southern country, any normal family wants to live in those conditions. I think that what the Russian president felt was that this will, which turned into a spectacular victory for the Maidan, could also surface in Russia.