Foreign Affairs Committee on March 3rd, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Czolij.

We're now going to move over to Father Ihor.

[Father Ihor Okhrimtchouk]

I totally agree with what Eugene has said.

Honourable Senators, thank you very much for inviting me here today. As I said before, I totally agree with what Mr. Czolij has mentioned. But I'd like to have my presentation approach it from a little bit different standpoint.

I have gratefully been a Canadian citizen since 1999. Before that, I came to Canada in 1990, before the breakup of the Soviet Union. I bought this hat and I brought it here and I wear it all the time to support the Canadian team in the Olympics.

What I wanted to say is not as much a political statement as personal experience. I believe in democracy. I love a democracy, and this is the only way for people to live. I fluently speak Russian. I check the media and I wanted to bring to your attention a couple of things. Before I came to Canada, Ukraine was a part of the Soviet Union and most of us young men at the age of 18 were drafted into the military forces. I was in the Soviet Army as well. I served in eastern Germany. I was a topographer-cartographer. I remember that for the year I served in there, every morning, day after day we had a political preparation. Even though the Soviet Union was breaking up and people saw it, we had to learn the works of Lenin, of the Communist Party, and we had to affirm every morning that we believed in the Soviet Union and that we would fight to the death for that country. Thank God, that empire has fallen.

It has fallen at a very expensive price. Many of my co-villagers—I was born in a village—gave up their lives for the Soviet cause in Afghanistan and I remember mothers crying at the graves of those people who died without understanding why. The reason I said I believe in democracy is because this is the only way for a human being to live. As a priest I believe it's in Genesis, the first book of the bible, which says we are created in the image of God. We are free and that freedom has to be honoured and given to everybody.

I'm not here to preach. The reason I pointed out that I served in the Soviet Army is that Putin is a KGB product. As one of the political commentators from Russia said, being part of the KGB is not a profession, it's a calling, a genotype. The sadist has to be there, the one who does not question the authority, the one who does not have any regrets about the action that happens. The only way to win is to win by force, by power, by any means.

The reason why I'm bringing this up is not because I'm a psychoanalyst or something like that, I'm not here to analyze this. But from that perspective I know it will take a very strong effort on behalf of NATO and the entire world community to stop this man. You look at news releases and you see Mr. Putin riding the horse, flying the plane, and stuff like that. It's almost like déjà vu going back to Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi. That's a man who has unlimited power and unlimited financial resources. He is the grand thief of the world. There is speculation that his wealth is between $130 billion to $150 billion. He's surrounded himself with like-minded people. The KGB and now Federal Security Service, the security bureau in Russia, became de facto embezzlers, the people who take the funds that come from those illegal options. They act in a very determined way.

I may be wrong, but I believe Russia has over 100 channels that are televised across that great country and each and every one of those channels is censored. Whatever you say, there's a three- to five-second delay. They interviewed a member of the parliament from Crimea who said there's really no chaos here or anything like that. It was live streaming on Russian television. He was talking on the phone. He said there's nothing really happening; the only crooks we have in Crimea are members of the regional parties who steal the money. He kept going on, but then right away his phone would hang up and they would say there's a terrible situation in Ukraine right now and we are experiencing technical difficulties.

It's not only censoring in the media. There's also the big political machine the KGB developed over the 70 years of its existence, which exists now too, to brainwash people. Even though it works so hard with that many channels, there are people who wake up and say they can't go against their brothers. They're our neighbours. It's suicide.

So there are reports.... Before I came here, I read that Russian troops gave Ukrainian troops—I'm not sure if it's in Crimea or across Ukraine—until 5 a.m. to give up their weapons. Five a.m. is about 10 p.m. our time, so we have about five hours.

I wanted to believe—because I never prayed as hard as I prayed today—that the military intervention would not happen, but I'm also a realistic person. A man who is in power who is not capable of remorse and going back, I'm not quite sure if he'll go back.

That's why if we're talking here.... I'm not sure if we're too late, but it has to be heard that the man in charge is truly a maniac, if you want to say it, no different than Stalin was. Thank God for all the media there, so at least we have an opportunity to see rounded coverage of the events versus what happened in 1932-33. 1932-33 is the only one we know of so far of what happened in Ukraine, or for that matter in the entire Soviet Union.

I have a small church here in Ottawa. My parishioners are Russians as well as Ukrainians and Belarusians and stuff like that. We are a church and we welcome everybody. Rather than sitting here, I'd rather go with my friend who sits—if you know where Bronson Avenue is, there's a drive off from the bridge there.... I have a friend there, Benny, who's a money beggar, but once a week we go to McDonald's and we talk. I'd rather be there. I respect all your work, but it's not my job to make political statements. Unfortunately, I'm here to plead, to say that we are, at the very least, on the brink of another humanitarian catastrophe.

If we were to take the pessimistic observation and see Putin for the maniac he is, who was given full authority to command the forces and to do whatever he deems necessary by his senate, I believe, the council of the federation.... I don't want to believe it, but realistically I expect that a military conflict will unfold.

I also want to ask for two more things. One of the people who was here before me, the young lady Lada Roslycky, analyzed the Black Sea fleet. She said to coordinate the efforts, not only of the larger members of NATO but also Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria, at that point in time, to help support, prevent, and show the unity of the world community in condemning any type of violence.

Honestly, I don't want a repetition of the scenario that happened in Georgia. When that happened in Georgia, we also prayed for them. Our church prays for all catastrophes that happen in the world, whether it is in Quebec when so many innocent people died because of the catastrophe with the derailing of the train, or in Georgia or anywhere else. Human life is so precious.

The second thing, continuing on the topic that human life is so precious—and it's my own statement—I also would like, if that were to happen, God forbid, that Canada, as it always has, opened a simplified process for the refugees to be able to come to Canada.

I thank you all for your attention.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much. We're going to start our first round, which will be seven minutes of questions and answers, with Madame Laverdière.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you very much.

I would like to thank both of you for your very moving presentations.

We are all very preoccupied by this situation in Ukraine, of course, and following matters, as you were saying. We're talking five hours from now for the famous or infamous deadline that was given.

Mr. Czolij, what specific role could Canada play? How could it show leadership concerning the situation in the Crimea?

You have really given us a list that is very detailed and interesting. Would it be possible to send that list to the committee for our use?

[Eugene Czolij]

Yes.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I will turn now to the other two witnesses.

Although there has not been much discussion of this in the committee to this point, you mentioned the role that Turkey could be called on to play.

Mr. Okhrimtchouk, you in particular mentioned Turkey. What role do you feel Turkey could play?

[Father Ihor Okhrimtchouk]

Mentioning Turkey, what I wanted to say is that the lady who left before me had mentioned it to me. She actually mentioned it before, but she mentioned to me that she lived in Crimea for three years and she analyzed that aspect.

She is a political science major, Dr. Lada Roslycky. She said that at this point in time, it would be good to coordinate with Turkey, which is an ally of the United States to a great extent, as well as Bulgaria, Romania, and so on.

The Russian media, when you read it, portrays Turkey as saying, “Aha, they are with us because they agreed with our statement”. The role of Turkey, even if the gesture is not that grand, is pivotal as well, bringing perhaps the ships closer to the Ukrainian coast, and so on. That's my understanding of that aspect.

[Eugene Czolij]

I will send you my speech. However, I would like to mention that the Minister of Foreign Affairs has been to Ukraine twice now. He has seen people and been able to meet with them. The propaganda that extremists have taken power will continue. I learned today that Mr. Yanukovych has called on the Russian president to use the military to restore order in Ukraine, because a band of extremists had taken power.

The Government of Canada did send its Minister of Foreign Affairs and he has been able to hold discussions with people there. I think that there will be some debate on the legitimacy of the people who are in power. I think that the minister needs to tell us what he has heard and indicate that the people he met with are people like us, people who simply want to live in a modern, democratic, European country.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you.

On that point about being modern and democratic, what role could Canada play around the elections that we still hope will be held in late May?

[Eugene Czolij]

When the last elections were held, Canada was very engaged. There were up to 500 observers during some elections. The Ukrainian community in Canada sent the same number of volunteer observers. I believe that at least that many observers should be sent for the next elections, since this is a turning point in the country's history.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Okhrimtchouk, your congregation members probably still have many friends and relatives in Ukraine. What are they hearing? How is the current situation affecting them?

[Father Ihor Okhrimtchouk]

As I was driving from the church to here, I actually was on the phone, a speakerphone, and I talked to two people. One of them is actually from Crimea itself and said there was a tremendous fear because there are announcements of the fact that action will start in a couple of hours. If you think about it, he says that you see lots of people that they've never seen before. He doesn't live in a large city. He lives just out of Sevastopol, in a village a couple of towns over. He says there are lots of people who are coming in with covered faces, and they assure people that order will be restored. So that's one thing in Crimea.

The second person I spoke to had talked to someone from the western Ukraine, where I am actually from. They were saying it's a tremendous fear. What she said to me is that people are talking on the streets saying that Putin wants to bring Yanukovych back to the Ukraine at any cost, establish his rule and dominance, and then say, “Aha, the lawful president is back.”

They are saying that Putin will not stop at any cost, so he has made up his mind and he will go there at any cost.

That's about all I can say at this point in time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

[Father Ihor Okhrimtchouk]

On Sunday we had more people than we had at Easter for Pascha. We had so many people coming in, and we were just praying for victims, for those who had died. You know, the petitions that you have in the Orthodox liturgy are very simple and say, you know, for the peace in the world and for the welfare of all people. Really it was the most poignant statement you could ever have made. It was probably the strongest for me.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

We are going to move to Mr. Anderson.

You have seven minutes, sir.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our visitors for being with us here today. Father, I'd like to ask you one question first.

I also want to share my time with Mr. Goldring. I'd like him to have a couple of minutes here.

I'd like to ask you, Father, what you see the role of the church being in solving this crisis in Ukraine. There have been some reports that the church has actually been used to create division rather than bring people together. I'm just wondering if you could give us a short statement as to what you feel the role of the church would be.

[Father Ihor Okhrimtchouk]

I thank you for your question. Actually, Mr. Goldring has asked me that, and I failed to mention it as I was not really prepared in a very systematic sense.

As for the church in Ukraine, there is the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, which has about three million to five million followers. There is the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which has broken into three branches. There are two smaller branches: the Autocephalous church, which is an independent church; and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyivan Patriarchate, which has about half of the Orthodox followers in Ukraine. Then there is a large authoritarian church, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Moscow Patriarchate.

The first three churches I mentioned were with people from the onset. You see the film of the conflict in Independence Square in Ukraine and you see the doors of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Kyivan Patriarchate, St. Michael's monastery and church, opening up and covering the protesters from the bullets. A makeshift hospital has been established there, and so on.

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Moscow Patriarchate is almost like a Trojan horse, you almost never know where they would go. They made a very pivotal statement a couple of days ago and the entire church said they were pleading to the Moscow Patriarch, who is the head of that church, to ask the president to stop by any means the invasion of Ukraine. The interesting part was that the official reply from the Moscow Patriarch was that he prays and hopes that Ukrainians will encourage their government and their troops to the least resistance of the rightful coming of the Russian troops.

So that's what I can tell you. Of course it outraged that part of the church. Depending on the circumstances, perhaps it will be the biggest catalyst for the unity of the church, but also the biggest catalyst for the people of that church to truly express the patriotic feelings of the people.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you.

Mr. Czolij, we had a chance to meet at Vilnius. At the time the three opposition leaders were meeting and trying to discuss strategy. It looked like the protests might almost fade out, and then that weekend was when the police decided to beat protestors. Our previous witness said that he really believed that Russia wants to provoke an overreaction from the government of Ukraine; they want them to react. Can you comment on that?

The second part of that would be, how far can the government be pushed before it needs to react and needs to push back?

[Eugene Czolij]

Thank you for the question.

Mr. Chairman, we have received various reports today both from the press service of Ukraine's Ministry of Internal Affairs and from the former adviser to President Putin, Andrei Illarionov, to the effect that special Russian forces, dressed as if from the Ukrainian side, would kill three to four Russian soldiers during the night, from March 3 to March 4, in order to escalate the conflict. That has been done in Georgia and it has been done elsewhere. That's the type of provocation that we are looking to see in the next days.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Okay.

I'll turn it over to Mr. Goldring. I wish I had much more time to ask you, but he had a question he wanted to ask.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Thank you very much.

I've been, of course, talking to the Ukrainian ambassador, and talking to the Russian embassy, too. Again, this morning, I phoned the Russian embassy and talked to a consul there. I talked to him about the so-called threat to the lives of the Russian-speaking Ukrainians. I asked him if he could explain why he feels that Russian-speaking Ukrainians are at risk in the Crimea and indeed all of the Ukraine. I asked him what the risk was. He could not say. It's simply because they're not at risk, as we speak.

Is the risk to the Russian-speaking Ukrainians a fact, or is it a figment of the maniacal mind of Putin?

[Eugene Czolij]

I think you answered your own question. I think it's obvious.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

On the record, though...?

[Eugene Czolij]

On the record, the Russian minority in Ukraine is treated as well as a minority is treated by a majority in the best countries.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Would the risk, if there is any, be characterized more as the risk from the Russian troops in the Crimea than from day-to-day life without the troops? The Russian troops indeed are the risk.