Foreign Affairs Committee on April 9th, 2014

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Thank you.

On the question of the current government's foreign policy, if I'm not mistaken there has been a shift to the Americas. I believe that was mentioned in the past, and I'd like to ask a question about Venezuela, which obviously at this point is a place where there is a considerable amount of civil unrest.

I wonder if the government has considered or done anything within the context of the OAS to try to bring pressure on the current government in Venezuela to address the legitimate concerns of the citizens there.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

That's a great question.

I tried to visit Venezuela last year before the presidential elections. I was actually already in South America when the Venezuelans cancelled my visit. It turns out that President Chavez was coming home from Cuba. I was very keen to engage with then-Vice-President Maduro.

We have been working with the OAS, particularly with the United States, and particularly with Panama, on trying to put a spotlight on our serious concerns about the limited democratic space and room for civil society there.

We have seen a number of countries, even friends and allies in South America, that have been perhaps reluctant to speak up and be as vocal as Canada, the United States, and Panama. Panama has had its ambassador kicked out and it's been quite problematic for them. I'm actually meeting my Panamanian counterpart tomorrow here in Ottawa to discuss this issue.

We've sent a new ambassador, Ben Rowswell, who I would say is one of our best of his generation to go there. He's particularly good on new media technologies.

We're very keen to try to engage with the Maduro government. The challenge is for the opposition. There is not an election this year. The control of media is quite profound, and then there is significant violence where we've seen upwards of three dozen people killed. That is obviously causing us great concern.

I spoke with the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Roberta Jacobson about how we might work together on this issue as well.

I don't think it's going to get better in Venezuela. I think the economy continues to face significant challenges, and obviously their capacity as well to provide energy subsidies to a range of countries in the region with Petrocaribe, and Nicaragua, and Bolivia, and elsewhere is real and significant. So we're keen, but we haven't had the greatest success there.

This new dynamic ambassador we're hoping can be the opening. We remain committed to a diplomatic dialogue with them on it, but we've been deeply concerned and have been quite vocal at the OAS about this.

I'd be happy to get you a bigger briefing on it if there is something that interests you.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Garneau.

That completes our first round. We're going to start our second round, which will be five minutes.

Mr. Wallace, welcome to the committee. The floor is yours.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a pleasure to be back here again.

I am just filling in for the parliamentary secretary, but I do happen to be a big fan of the estimates process. I've been at it for a number of years.

Based on the previous discussion that happened, Mr. Chair, it might be advisable that you have officials from the Treasury Board come and give the committee some overview on how the estimates process works. They've offered to do it for every committee. I've been at many of their presentations. It takes a while for it to sink in, but it's a great way to understand that you're comparing mains to mains, that the public accounts are six months behind the actual end of the fiscal year and comparing what you're doing. I think it's a very good point.

I think Minister Baird made a very good point. Just because you're allocated money for a program, if the program can be delivered at less cost it's better for the taxpayer. There's nothing wrong with being under expenditures.

One part of the estimates process that I actually like, and have used numerous times, is the plans and priority documents that go along with the performance reports that come out in the fall. Frankly, Mr. Chair, I'm not a foreign affairs specialist. It's not an area that I specialize in much. I don't know a lot about it. I have lots of people in my riding who are interested in the issues. So what I do is I print out the plans and priority documents and I send them to those organizations and individuals and say, “This is exactly what the department is doing”, not what we're doing politically, in a sense. I mean it has a political overtone to it.

I want to thank you, and through you, your staff, and the staff who are here, for the quality of the work that goes into these documents. It's very good reading. It highlights what we've done in the past in terms of numbers, even in terms of the number of people doing each strategic direction, and it tells you what the plan is for the next three years. So there's a real opportunity to have a real good discussion with your constituents on what is happening.

There's one part in your piece that I was very interested in, in the plans and priorities document. It's about the risks in your department. You have different risks than those in many departments. Those risks include, and I highlighted them, personal and physical security. There's a risk for cyber threats, as we know today, as we've seen elsewhere. There are emergency response issues that we have in terms of being able to respond to our goals, and the final one, which is relatively new, because of the amalgamation of the two departments there's a bit of risk there.

I would like you or whoever would like to comment on how you've approached those risks, and what actions you're taking.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thanks very much.

Obviously the document would be written by the professionals in the department who Mr. Dewar spoke of, so thank you to everyone who worked to put it together.

We obviously have a number of big risks. The thing that probably concerns me and keeps me up at night most is just the physical safety and security of our people. I have had to meet with the family of a fallen diplomat who was killed in a terrorist attack in Nairobi. It was after hours at a shopping mall. It was well heard of. It was the worst possible day of my time as minister. This is something we constantly talk about: the security of our diplomats abroad.

Obviously in many parts of the world there's tremendous risk. We have to constantly be re-evaluating updated circumstances in a new context. If someone could fly a plane right into the Pentagon, the military headquarters of the world's largest superpower, obviously it shows that anything—anything—is vulnerable. Whether it's civil unrest, whether it's war, if you look at, for example, our former mission in Damascus, and I won't go on, but the hotspots are probably fairly obvious. This is probably the thing that concerns me the most. We have a very simple principle that we have to ensure that we're doing the best we can to keep our people safe. If they're not safe, we have two options: one, get them out of there until it is; or two, make the investments that are required. That's something that is tremendously important.

There are other things. Cyber risks are growing, not just for our department but around the world. Emergency response is a big one. Obviously, a big chunk of that is not just our own staff but dealing with Canadians. You look at the situations we saw in recent years, in Libya, in Lebanon in 2006. That can be challenging. That's something we try to keep an eye on.

I was particularly pleased with the work the department did with respect to the voluntary evacuations in Syria to give people a lot of heads-up, to leave while they can, and thus far we have avoided significant challenges there.

With respect to amalgamation, that's obviously something shared by all ministers.

Did you want to speak to that, Christian?

I'll just finish up then.

Obviously we want to see the structure come along well, and the vision, and engaging employees is really important.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's all the time we have.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

I have to tell you, we do have a risk-based approach. We are focusing on training and exercise resources in order to ensure the missions are in fact safe in emergencies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Ms. Yelich.

We're going to turn it over to Mr. Dewar and Madam Laverdière for five minutes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Minister Baird, I just want to ask you to provide the committee with information. Last year, I asked you about the approvals from the first quarter of both 2012-13 and 2013-14. You did follow up with the data for 2013-14, but could I ask you to provide the committee—not right now, you can send it in—with information for 2012-13? That part I had asked for, we didn't get.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Okay, I'd be happy to do that.

I would just ask you to write out exactly what you want so we have precision. I'll ask Nadir Patel to get back to the committee.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I've had a chance to digest your chart. It's wonderful news.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

It's actually the department's chart. Mr. Patel here wrote it.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I will decide who—

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I want to give him credit because he's one of the best of his generation.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

It's great, but the numbers don't change. Those are the facts in looking at it. So I was putting forward the fact that $300 million had lapsed and your numbers say the same thing, albeit it's in a nice pie chart. That's great.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

See? He liked it.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I appreciate the pie chart. A constituent did it, I think.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

He's a constituent of yours actually.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

It's blue.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Don't forget, you work for him.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I absolutely do. So I'm giving credit where it's due.

But now to you, Minister Baird, because you're the one who's actually responsible for how things are done at the end. You're accountable.

This doesn't change anything. There's $300 million that lapsed in terms of your being able to provide funding. I'll give you an example and I will tell you that this is having an effect on our reputation.

We're hearing from other countries that Canada is not in the game in certain areas and that's hurting our reputation because you, sir, can't get money out the door.

I'll give you one specific example: Guatemala. For some reason, and I don't understand why, we did not approve funding to help with bringing people to justice for the mass atrocities that were committed in the 1980s. Our government, your ministry, was working.... Your department was doing good work on this, but this fund that you have, that you didn't spend all the money for, decided not to fund that project.

There are many others and I won't tell you what they are. You know what they are. Minister, you have $300 million that lapsed. This isn't about saving money. This is about investing money and at the end of the day, it's about our reputation. It's about, in the case of Guatemala, dealing with a genocide that happened in the 1980s where people were being brought to justice and dealt with with impunity. You met with the attorney general. I did. They were hoping for approvals on this.

Why weren't you able to approve that project and all these other projects that have been put in front of you? Sir, I believe it's hurting our reputation.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I've never had any country in the world raise this with me. So you're talking about different people.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Guatemala; they didn't ask you to support a program for justice?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

You said it was hurting our reputation that we were lapsed in funds. There are a lot of people who make grant applications.