Evidence of meeting #71 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was group.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Heidi Hulan  Assistant Deputy Minister and Political Director, International Security, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Rebecca Netley  Executive Director, Accountability, Human Rights and United Nations Law Division, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Andrew Turner  Director, Eastern Europe and Eurasia Division, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Marcel Lebleu  Director General, West and Central African Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Egidijus Meilūnas  Vice-Minister, Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Lithuania

12:10 p.m.

Egidijus Meilūnas Vice-Minister, Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Lithuania

Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, dear colleagues, first of all, thank you for your invitation. It's really a great honour for me to be with you today.

Mr. Chairman, thank you for your very kind introduction and remarks regarding our bilateral co-operation.

We Lithuanians value Canada as a great friend of Lithuania. Thank you for your invaluable support for our independence and security. We also value you as a like-minded country with which we have really excellent co-operation in many fields.

We are proud of the Lithuanian community in Canada, which greatly contributes to our co-operation and strengthens our friendship. We highly value your great contribution to the Baltic states, including Lithuania's security. Actually, security and defence are areas we would like to even expand and deepen co-operation with Canada.

Let me also express our appreciation for your strong support and development contribution for Ukraine. Your Prime Minister's visit last Saturday to Kyiv was a great symbol of Canada's unwavering support to Ukraine.

Ladies and gentlemen, in four weeks, we will host the NATO summit in Vilnius. I would like to share some thoughts and views with you on what all allies have to achieve and what should be discussed at the summit.

First of all, the alliance must substantially strengthen deterrence and forward defence in the eastern flank. Last year, in Madrid, the allies very clearly stated, “Russia is the most significant and direct threat to Allies’ security and to peace and stability in the Euro-Atlantic area.”

The security reality after February 24 last year demanded a fundamental rethinking of NATO's deterrence and defence posture from tripwire strategy to denial for any adversary any opportunity of attack. In order to substantially strengthen NATO's deterrence and forward defences, the allies in Madrid committed to “deploying additional robust in-place combat-ready forces on NATO’s eastern flank, to be scaled up from the existing battalion-sized battle groups to brigades, where and when required....”

We are very grateful to all allies, in particular our enhanced forward presence framework and contributing nations, including Canada, who demonstrated a commitment to collective defence by sending additional capabilities to our region. However, the alliance has to do more in order to be ready for any scenario, including a no-notice scenario.

In the foreseeable future, Russia will remain the most significant and direct threat to NATO, to our alliance. Russia is not giving up its aggressive stance towards neighbours and the west. For example, in January, Russia announced that over the next three years, it plans to increase the manpower of its army by 40%, up to 1.5 million, create a new army corps and upgrade seven brigades into motorized infantry divisions.

The Russia-Belarus political and military integration is a fait accompli. Belarus is permanently stationing Russian troops and is complicit in its aggression against Ukraine. A recently signed agreement between Russia and Belarus on the deployment of nuclear arms in the territory of Belarus also calls for strengthening of our posture in all domains.

These facts increase further the strategic importance of the so-called Suwałki gap that connects the Baltic states with the rest of NATO and clearly demonstrates the need for functioning forward defences.

Enhanced air and missile defence postures, pre-positioning of stocks, ammunition and equipment and a persistent presence of additional robust in-place combat-ready brigade-size forces would signal a firm readiness to defend every inch of allied territory at all times.

In this regard, I would like to take this opportunity to briefly inform you about our national commitments.

We remain steadfast in continuing with high defence spending, 2.52% of GDP, with increased investments into military infrastructure, armed forces modernization and scaling up the level of national military forces to the level of division.

Second, in Vilnius we have to find a way to anchor Ukraine to the Euro-Atlantic security order. Article 10 of the Washington treaty refers to one main criteria for NATO membership, which is the ability of the state to contribute to the security of the Euro-Atlantic area. Ukraine has already proved that it is capable of fighting against Russia, which is the most significant and direct threat to the Euro-Atlantic community.

Independent, democratic and strong Ukraine, as a full-fledged member of NATO, is vital to our security and stability. Therefore, in Vilnius we have to confirm that Ukraine will become a member of NATO and set a clear pathway for Ukraine's membership in NATO. We also have to expand and deepen existing NATO-Ukraine co-operation and confirm that we will continue to support Ukraine as long and as much as needed.

Very briefly, there are two other important topics on Vilnius. If we want to achieve our strategic goals, we have to agree on adequate defence funding and discuss the defence investment pledge renewal and setting 2% of GDP as a minimum.

Second, there is the NATO AP4 Indo-Pacific co-operation. As Jens Stoltenberg, NATO's Secretary General, stated in Japan in January of this year, “transatlantic and Indo-Pacific security is deeply interconnected”. I would even say it's indivisible. At the Vilnius summit, we must strengthen the partnership with our Indo-Pacific partners to increase our resilience and security supply chains and to counter hybrid and cyber threats from the increasingly malign authoritarian countries.

I'll end very briefly on accountability. One of the reasons Russia is behaving so brutally in Ukraine—killing innocent people, including children, and destroying and demolishing cities and villages—and is being so increasingly aggressive towards us is that Russia has never been brought to justice and punished for its terrible crimes against other nations. Their feeling of immunity lets them think they are free to do what they want. We have to change this and bring Russia to justice for its war crimes in Ukraine. In this regard, the ICC will play a crucial role, but we also have to establish a special tribunal for Russia's crimes of aggression.

In this regard, listening to your discussions on the Wagner Group, I would like to inform you about a document that was approved by our Lithuanian Parliament on March 14 of this year, “Resolution on Designating the Private Military Company Wagner as a Terrorist Organisation”. I would like to quote two sentences from this document.

First, the Lithuanian Parliament “notes that the Russian Federation’s private military company Wagner is a terrorist organisation and that its members and mercenaries pose a threat to state and public security”. Second, the Lithuanian Parliament “calls on other states to recognise the Russian Federation’s private military company Wagner as a terrorist organisation”.

Thank you very much for your kind attention.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you very much, Vice-Minister Meilūnas.

We will now open it to questions.

Yes, Mr. Hoback.

June 13th, 2023 / 12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

On a point of order, I'm wondering if we could have what he just put on the list brought into that other study, or what we talked about in the first part, the Wagner study.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Yes. We could do that, but we haven't really gotten started. There's nothing to—

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

We could do that?

12:20 p.m.

An hon. member

Agreed.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

We agree?

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Yes.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Okay. I think that would be helpful.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Absolutely.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Thank you, Chair.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Mr. Hoback, you have four minutes for questions.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Vice-Minister, it's great to have you here. I really appreciate your taking the time and effort to show up in person and give us your insight into how the war is affecting your country and the region.

You're right on the border with Belarus. I'm curious; how is your relationship with Belarus? You probably at one time did a lot of trade within the Belarus-Russian corridor. How have you changed those trade patterns? You've sacrificed a lot. I'm kind of curious about what the impact has been.

I get only four minutes, so I'll ask my last question. Where could Canada shore up any weaknesses? Where could we assist you in making sure you have what you require in order to take on refugees, for instance, or indeed people who are leaving and fleeing Russia because they don't want to be drafted? What are you doing in those areas as well?

12:25 p.m.

Vice-Minister, Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Lithuania

Egidijus Meilūnas

Thank you very much for your questions.

First of all, in speaking about our economic co-operation with Belarus, some time ago, 10 or 15 years ago, it was quite an important economic partner for Lithuania, but right now we have very limited economic relations, because of mainly two reasons. First, Lithuanian business people's assessment is that Belarus is not a reliable partner; and second, it has an aggressive stance against Lithuania and other neighbouring countries.

Two years ago we also introduced sanctions against the Belarusian regime. We stopped transit, for example, of Belarusian potash fertilizers through Lithuanian seaports. To summarize it now, these economic relations are very limited.

Could you please repeat your second question?

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Yes. I'm just curious, with the stopping of that relationship with Belarus, how you've been able to find other markets or other suppliers...into your economy.

I guess the second part of that question is regarding how you are handling refugees coming in from Ukraine or defectors coming in from Russia. There are lots of young men who do not believe in this war and do not want to be part of it. Are they coming through Belarus into Lithuania? Are you experiencing any of those types of situations?

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

I want to let you know that you only have a minute to answer both of those questions, because then we have to turn to the other members.

12:25 p.m.

Vice-Minister, Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Lithuania

Egidijus Meilūnas

Very briefly, we host thousands of Belarusian and Russian opposition leaders in Lithuania, so that is my answer to the second part of your question.

Speaking about diversification and new partners, I would like to give you two statistics from our foreign trade last year. With regard to Lithuanian origin of goods exports, more than 84% were exported to like-minded countries and only 1.2% to such autocratic regimes like Belarus, Russia and China. My answer is strategic diversification and enhanced co-operation with like-minded countries.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you.

We now go to MP Sarai for four minutes.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Vice-Minister.

Vice-Minister, can you shed some light, given your particular location in the region and your better intelligence with regard to Russia and paramilitary forces in Russia, on the Wagner Group's strength and weakness in the current Ukraine involvement? We've been talking about that. We are publicly seeing the discontent between the defence minister of Russia and the Wagner Group. It would be nice to know, from your perspective, if that is real. Is there a retreat of the Wagner Group from the front lines, or are they just repositioning?

12:25 p.m.

Vice-Minister, Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Lithuania

Egidijus Meilūnas

Thank you very much for your question.

It's not an easy task to comment on what is happening right now in Russia. Are those public disagreements real or not? As I mentioned in my introductory remarks, the most important thing is what the Russians' real intentions are.

As I mentioned, they already publicly announced their plans to increase and scale up the existing military formations over the next three years. The rhetoric, the behaviour, is becoming more and more aggressive not only against Ukraine and other neighbours, but also against members of the Euro-Atlantic community. That is, in the near future, a key challenge for all of us. How do we tackle this new security situation in our region?

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

When you say Russia is going to be ramping up over 40% increases, or targeting 40% increases, do you think with the global sanctions and the losses there, or the challenges they are facing in Ukraine, they will physically be able to meet those financially and/or meet those physical bodies?

I guess they'll just forceably recruit physical bodies, but are they financially capable of increasing their military might by 40%?

12:30 p.m.

Vice-Minister, Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Lithuania

Egidijus Meilūnas

That's a very good question. It's to the point.

I fully subscribe to what you said in that sanctions and losses in Ukraine have substantially weakened the Russian armed forces and their capability to continue the aggression. However, we have to be aware that Russia is an autocratic, imperialistic and chauvinistic—I could say, in this way—country, which at this time, unfortunately, hasn't changed its behaviour and its intentions against, as I mentioned, neighbouring countries and NATO.

Yes, sanctions are quite effective, but they're still not enough to fully prevent them from producing missiles.

I believe all like-minded allies have to work harder in this regard to introduce new sanctions preventing their war machine from further attacking Ukraine and us, yes.

Okay. I'll stop.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you very much, Vice-Minister.

We next go to Madam Larouche.

You have four minutes.

12:30 p.m.

Bloc

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Vice-Minister, thank you for being here.

In addition to sharing a border with Belarus, Lithuania shares a border with Kaliningrad, a Russian exclave. Why did the European Union, which includes Lithuania, decide to apply sanctions to that territory?

I'd like to hear your opinion on the main challenges you're facing in applying sanctions in that region. Additionally, has Russia's military posture in Kaliningrad undergone a notable change since February 24, 2022?

12:30 p.m.

Vice-Minister, Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Lithuania

Egidijus Meilūnas

Thank you. Again, that is a very good question.

First, regarding military suggestions, Kaliningrad, despite Russian losses in Ukraine, remains a highly militarized region, which poses a threat to neighbouring countries and the whole Baltic Sea region.

Now speaking about what you probably had in mind, which is transit to Kaliningrad, there is a trilateral agreement from 2004 as part of our membership accession talks in which the European Union, Lithuania and the Russian Federation agreed at that time to allow passengers and goods transit from mainland Russia to Kaliningrad through Lithuanian territory on certain conditions.

When Russia started a war of aggression against Ukraine, many Russian goods were sanctioned according to EU sanctions regimes. In agreement with the European Union, we allow only very limited quantities of goods to be sent via Lithuania's territory to Kaliningrad, mainly because of the humanitarian needs of the people of Kaliningrad.