Evidence of meeting #5 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was management.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
I have two questions: one short and another longer one.
First, I'd like to go back to what Mr. Moloney told me earlier, that the Office of the Comptroller General had developed an action plan for hiring human resources as auditors and new accountants. Did I understand correctly?
4:25 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
It was both.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
So that means that you have already more or less decided on the type of accounting management you will be using?
4:25 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Not exactly. That means that the Office of the Comptroller General is trying to reinforce capabilities within the departments. This reinforced capability could meet existing needs. At the same time, it is clear that, as already mentioned in the report, we will need more sophisticated and greater capabilities in general to manage a system based on accrual accounting.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
Do you also associate that with what Mr. Wouters told us on page 7 about the Internal Audit Policy?
4:25 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
That's part of it.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
Good, all right, but those are two different points in Mr. Wouters' document.
My last question, Mr. Wouters, is a big one. Can you explain to me why you say on the ninth line on page 5:
[...] it will allow for the removal in future years of approximately $1.7 billion from the Supplementary Estimates approval process.
How will you go about removing $1.7 billion?
4:30 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
In principle, that $1.7 billion will be part of the estimates that are normally before Parliament in March.
The idea is to bring together all these amounts that are normally—now and for a long time now—requested through these Supplementary Estimates. However, our intention is now to request, in a central vote, an amount that will cover the needs of all the departments. This year, for example, 33 departments will have considered it necessary to be involved in this process. However, they are not there because we have this central vote.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
It's still my turn?
Tell me, on page 244, under the heading “Vote 35” is a transfer of $1 million from various departments and agencies to the Treasury Board Secretariat for the National Managers' Community.
Can you tell me what this initiative called the National Managers' Community is? Is this new or additional funding? Who will be using this funding? Who will benefit from it?
4:30 p.m.
Ginette Sylvestre Acting Senior Financial Officer, Strategic management and Planning, Canada Public Service Agency
The Managers' Community has been around for a number of years now. It used to be at CIDA. Every department gives funding to it. Now, since it was more consistent with the Agency's mandate, we are going to absorb. So we're asking each department to give us the amount it previously gave CIDA. It's not really a change in expenditures; it's just that now it goes to the Agency instead of CIDA.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
You'll understand that there is a very big increase in the Agency's operating budget.
4:30 p.m.
Acting Senior Financial Officer, Strategic management and Planning, Canada Public Service Agency
Yes.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
The National Managers' Community, if I understand correctly, is another service that you are asked to provide. Ultimately, what was just hanging around at the Human Resources Agency has been taken and given to you?
Perhaps I'm expressing myself poorly.
4:30 p.m.
Acting Senior Financial Officer, Strategic management and Planning, Canada Public Service Agency
No. I'll tell you exactly what they're doing.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
The National Managers' Community is requesting a transfer of $1 million. However, your total budget is increased by 33.5%. So does that mean that the National Managers' Community, plus another small group of officials from Human Resources, and another group from another department were transferred to you? Is that what explains the 33.5% increase in your budget?
4:30 p.m.
Acting Senior Financial Officer, Strategic management and Planning, Canada Public Service Agency
That million dollars, which already existed, is only for the National Managers' Community. Instead of being paid to CIDA, it will now come under the Agency.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
So how do you explain the 33.5% increase in spending? It's a lot, isn't it?
4:30 p.m.
Acting Senior Financial Officer, Strategic management and Planning, Canada Public Service Agency
In fact, we already had that funding this year, but we're always trying to obtain supplementary funding, precisely for the Public Service Modernization Act, the PSMA, as Mr. Burton mentioned, for implementation of the Management Accountability Framework for the public service.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau
Before we end, there's one point I'd like to ask about.
Mr. Burton mentioned that you have a new compensation framework. Does that mean that if there is a problem in terms of how you compensate certain groups and you're having a hard time recruiting people in those groups, you would be allowed to pay them more than the normal salary would be for that classification?
4:35 p.m.
Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
Well, again, compensation is more than a salary. When we say “we should not lead, but be comparable to”, we look at all aspects of compensation. That is wages and salary, that's pension benefits, health benefits. That's how we compare.
So in some cases we may come out a little bit behind the private sector when it comes to the wages and salaries, but we can rank somewhat better to a lot better in the area of pension. That's how we look at it when we say we want to be comparable. In principle, that's the case.
In the case of trying to engage specialized IT people, we have to look at the market overall in order to be competitive, but we will do it on a total compensation basis.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau
But how do you do that if you have union contracts and pay scales set up already? Are you allowed to vary those pay scales in areas where you're having difficulty recruiting? We know how difficult it is, if not almost impossible, to change classifications.
4:35 p.m.
Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
There were cases a number of years ago when it was really difficult to hire IT people, our CSs, so as part of that collective bargaining agreement, to recognize the market, we put in place what was called a terminal allowance. In addition to the wage increase or salary increase of that group, we provided an additional amount of compensation. We called it a terminal allowance, which is to say if the market were to change at any point in time, we could negotiate the removal of that terminal allowance. In fact, in the last round of collective bargaining with that group we did agree to phase out that terminal allowance.
So there are different mechanisms like that where in fact we can make those adjustments to address the needs of the public service related to the competitive aspects of the market.