Evidence of meeting #22 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was infrastructure.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Louis Ranger  Deputy Head, Infrastructure Canada
Alister Smith  Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Brian Pagan  Executive Director, Expenditure Operations and Estimates Division, Treasury Board Secretariat

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

I call the meeting to order. I see a quorum.

Our colleagues were reviewing the estimates today. Our clerk is still attending to some paperwork, but the clerk has distributed for your reference copies of the supplementary estimates (A) for 2009-10, which were introduced into the House only about an hour ago.

Our witnesses today are the Honourable John Baird, the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. He has a number of officials with him from Infrastructure Canada. I see on the list Louis Ranger, John Forster, Carol Beal, and David Cluff. I will allow the minister to introduce the officials he thinks are appropriate.

I'm pretty sure, Minister, you'll have an opening statement. We apologize for the slight delay. The committees do get backed up here in this particular committee room.

We're ready to go, Minister. I'm sure you'll have an opening statement, and then we'll go to questions from members.

11:05 a.m.

Ottawa West—Nepean Ontario

Conservative

John Baird ConservativeMinister of Transport

First, I want to thank you for having me at the committee. I was particularly heartened by the warm invitation to be here from my friend from Willowdale, and I am excited to be here.

Given that we're starting 10 minutes late and going until 12 o'clock, I'm prepared to step aside with my statement and go right into 15 minutes of questions, if the committee agrees, or we can go until 12:10, and I can go ahead with my speech. I'm in your hands, Mr. Chair.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

No. I think we'd like to hear, in your own style, a description of the government's stance on the movement of the.... I think the focus is on the movement of the infrastructure moneys out into the communities.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Over the last hour or 40 minutes, everyone has been poring through the supplementary estimates (A), so I'll give my speech and we'll get on.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

Without prejudging members, the focus has been rule compliance, speed, and job creation, but members will decide what their real focus is when we get around to it.

The microphone is yours.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm very pleased to be here to provide an update on the significant progress that the government has made in stimulating local economies, creating jobs, and helping support Canadian families.

Through our economic action plan, this government has made unprecedented investments in infrastructure from coast to coast to coast. Over the last few weeks we've made investments right across the country, from highway rehabilitation and public transit improvements in British Columbia to road and bridge reconstruction in Nova Scotia. Our government continues to work productively with the provinces, territories, and municipalities to get stimulus moneys to work as fast as possible.

Just 44 days into the 2009-10 fiscal year, our actions have already had a serious impact. In Ontario alone we have received 2,746 project proposals worth in excess of $6 billion from 425 municipalities province-wide. These municipalities are ready to work, and we are proud to partner with them to get these projects under way. My colleague the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development recently announced $2 billion for low-cost loans to municipalities for infrastructure-related projects. This will allow projects to get started faster and to have a greater effect on communities.

One of the most notable aspects of our government's economic action plan is the support that it's received across political lines. When we took our five-point infrastructure plan to the first ministers conference, it was unanimously endorsed by New Democratic, Liberal, and Conservative premiers. Since that time we've been working closely with Premiers Campbell, McGuinty, Doer, and Charest, just to name a few. Each has put aside partisanship to focus on helping Canada's economy recover from the most serious global recessions we've seen in generations. I should note too that the stimulus funding contained in budget 2009 as well as the important changes we've made to the Navigable Waters Protection Act received the support of Mr. Ignatieff and the Liberal Party, and they should be commended for that.

In the recent past, governments of different political stripes, Conservative and Liberal, have had trouble getting infrastructure money moving quickly. I think of programs like MRIF and CSIF, which under the previous government took two or three years or more to set up. I can also say frankly that this government is not satisfied with the layers of bureaucracy and agreements that have tied up infrastructure money under our lead either. So we've made a concerted effort to cut through red tape and speed up federal approvals, and I'm proud to report that we've made real and substantial progress. This work has been difficult, but it's essential if we're going to succeed in delivering the economic shot in the arm we need to deliver to the Canadian economy.

Like you, I'm eager to see the benefits that this funding will bring, but I know the results won't be apparent within the first month or two of the fiscal year. I was very pleased to see the comments of the leader of the Liberal Party, Michael Ignatieff. To his credit, he reached much the same conclusion when he said at the Liberal press conference at the Liberal convention that it doesn't make much sense to say we passed a budget in April, and it's the first of May; we have to deal with it for a little bit of time to see whether the measures we supported have in fact worked.

We will be reporting on our progress to Parliament in June. But a big part of the success of our approach will involve matching and multiplying money invested by our partners in other levels of government. By working with provinces, territories, and municipalities, we are able to invest three times more, go three times farther, three times faster. The huge response from municipalities, for example in the province of Ontario, shows that local governments are ready and able to act, and with the strong commitment of my premier, Dalton McGuinty, we will get the job done.

In addition, and as part of our balanced approach to stimulus, our government doubled the gas tax fund as of April 1 from $1 billion to $2 billion per year. We also moved the first payment up by three months so that the municipalities can put that money to work quickly. This is money that goes directly into the bank accounts of municipalities in every corner of the country.

Let me be clear. Discussions continue and agreements are being signed, ready-to-go projects are being identified, and applications are being processed. This action is ten times faster than anything in recent history. We are moving as aggressively and as quickly as possible. Officials in my department are working around the clock to speed up the process. Projects like the ones in British Columbia and Nova Scotia will make our nation and our communities safer, stronger, and healthier for decades to come. We need to act now in order to protect Canadians and generate the economic stimulus we need to see us through this recession.

By taking these measures outlined in our economic action plan, we can ensure that we will emerge from this recession faster than other countries and stronger than ever. With your help, we can continue this work.

I'd be pleased to take any questions, particularly from my friend the member for Willowdale.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

Thank you very much, Minister.

We'll go right to questioning.

Ms. Hall Findlay, for eight minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, everybody, for being here, and you in particular, Minister, for giving us your time his morning. It's much appreciated.

We appreciate the effort at the non-partisan comments. And I will also in turn congratulate this government on increasing the gas tax fund, thanks to strong suggestions from us in opposition for quite a long time. So it's nice to know we're being heard in encouraging the right action on the part of government.

I will also say I recognize that I may, if I'm thorough in my job today, jeopardize an invitation to your birthday party, but I hope you will respect the need for us to do our jobs as parliamentarians. That's what we're here for.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

I have a great deal of respect for the member for Willowdale.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

But very specifically, we are here today to get as much detail in terms of facts and figures as possible. You've heard our concern—and in particular, in the last number of days there have been an awful lot of announcements, multiple announcements in many cases, a lot of language—but our real concern is that the number of projects that have actually been started is very small or nil.

Having worked many years ago in the construction industry, I know, now that we're well into May, that we've already missed a significant part of this year's construction season. So could you please tell us which projects and how many projects have actually now put shovels to ground?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

We'll be reporting back to Parliament in June. I think it's important we focus on the real federal role here, which is to work with the funding partners, identify priorities, and make announcements. After an announcement is made, the project proponents—in most cases municipalities, and in some cases provinces or other groups—can get going immediately.

We've seen good success in British Columbia, where a number of projects are under way, and in the province of Nova Scotia, where a number of projects are under way. There's a community centre in Huntsville that is getting going as well.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

I actually just want to be clear, because there was a Building Canada Fund announced three years ago, and only 5% of that has actually been spent. But I'm specifically asking about shovels to ground with stimulus money that we approved in the budget. So I don't mean old projects, and I understand the desire and there's more talk of announcements, but the question was very specific. Can you tell me what projects, using the new stimulus money, have actually started construction?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

There are a number that have, and we'll be reporting back in June on that.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

But it's now May and I'm asking the question now. Surely you have some, or perhaps you don't. If you have projects....

We approved this budget, despite its flaws, to ensure money for stimulus started to flow. That was the whole reason for doing that. Can you please tell me about projects that in fact are using this stimulus money that was approved and that at this time—the middle of May, already well into the construction season—have shovels already breaking ground?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

I do agree with Mr. Ignatieff when he said very strongly in Vancouver—and I think he was wise in this respect—that it wouldn't make much sense to be passing judgment in May on a plan that was just started in April. It will snowball.

To give you a few examples, I can tell you about Highway 97, Stormy Road North, in the province of British Columbia; the construction has already begun there. I can tell about Highway 77 from Deasum Creek to the Northwest Territories border; the tender is being released shortly and the contractors are already being hired.

The good news is that things are happening. There are projects that are going. That will snowball every day, every week, every month, and we'll be reporting back to Parliament in June, as Parliament requested, and I think that's a good idea.

There's no doubt that when you work with partners you have to conclude agreements, and we've done it 10 times faster than it was ever done before. I'm confident you'll see a rather sharp curve every day, every week, and every month as we go forward. The specifics on what are thousands of different projects will be coming.

You raised a concern and a problem with the Building Canada Fund, and I'm going to agree with you. Both MRIF and CSIF, done by the Martin government, and the Building Canada Fund by our government took an inordinate amount of time to develop agreements with the provinces and then to identify projects. I think concerns and criticisms in some respects are fair. We've moved 10 times faster in working with the provinces and municipalities. And in the absence of just going it alone or just giving money to the municipalities, we'll be able to create three times as many—

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

I'm really sorry to interrupt, Mr. Minister, but to say “we will” and that we're dealing with speed.... You have given me two small examples in British Columbia. I still am not clear on whether that's from stimulus funding--

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

It is.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

--or whether that's from BCF funding that was already announced.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

It is stimulus funding.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

You've referred to 2,700 project applications, but we are in the middle of May. I will repeat that to say that “we will”, to have forward-looking projections, does not answer my question. This money was approved, with some reservations, but it was approved by the opposition specifically so we would get stimulus money out the door. This budget was approved months ago. It was being drafted well before that. It is now the middle of May.

You yourself have admitted that when you have an application, it will take time to establish partners. We have expressed real concerns about the matching requirements for municipalities, because we know—and hopefully we'll talk a bit more about that—that it has held up an awful lot. But the key here is that this money simply has not flowed and we are not seeing shovels in the ground.

Announcements do not pay wages. The purpose of the approval of the stimulus money was to get people back to work. And you have simply not given me examples of this. I don't want forward-looking projections. I want to know what your government has actually accomplished.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

But the good news is that announcements actually do. When we make an announcement, the project proponent has the green light to move forward immediately to get shovels in the ground. They can immediately hire people. They can immediately move forward, whether it's engineers, architects--

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

Would that be like the Edmonton light rail announcement, which has now been re-announced, and yet the project still doesn't have approval?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Which project is this?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

It is the Edmonton light rail.

The problem is that we keep getting announcements. We have situations where we've had projects announced two, three, and even four times. Announcements do not pay wages. My question was whether cheques have been written.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

But I'm going to--