Government Operations Committee on May 14th, 2009

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Merci.

Monsieur Gourde, pour cinq minutes.

And Minister, we're up to about noon now, and Monsieur Gourde has at least the next five minutes, if that's okay.

Monsieur Gourde.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much for being here, minister. You always have very good answers, and it's very much appreciated.

I've heard a lot about efforts to cut red tape and speed up investments in infrastructure. Could you please explain to me what the government has done since the budget to achieve those objectives?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Oh, I must tell you that your answers during question period are good too, Mr. Gourde.

I must say we've established a five-part action plan for infrastructure so that things move more quickly. We've tabled the budget bill, we've made changes to environmental studies and the way we work with the provinces for this stimulus funding.

It's essential to have good partnerships. It isn't always easy; every level of government has its own priorities. It's essential to work together, to approve a good list that meets needs in the areas of public transit, culture, roads, bridges...

We've made progress with regard to Quebec. It isn't as quick as I would like, but we're going to table a report in the House in June. We made good announcements in Thetford Mines, and Lévis. There's PRECO.

We also have a list under review, and I'm hoping that, in the coming days or weeks, there will be new announcements and new projects that can start up as soon as possible.

The proposal has changed a great deal. I'm a former provincial minister and I respect provincial jurisdictions. The provinces don't work for the Government of Canada. We're working in partnership. In the partnership, it's not our responsibility to micro-manage every project.

I hope that the provinces will ultimately be happy with the results. As a large number of projects will be carried out in the provinces, I would like to emphasize that cultural projects are important. We made a good announcement yesterday of a cultural project and we will be doing more in future. I'm sure this is a priority for your citizens as well.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Minister, because Canada is a large country, roads and highways are vital to our economy.

Could you tell us about how the government is investing in our transportation infrastructure?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Of course.

Another priority of the Government of Canada for the infrastructure fund are highways and national highways. We've done a lot in suburban Montreal in the past few years, and we are ready to do more. The new funds are for those kinds of projects: road and highway projects are eligible and the funding is available.

How are these investments being made? There are cost-shared projects between the federal and provincial governments. There are others in which the municipal level is taking part and for which costs are shared three ways. We're going to continue maintaining this priority.

I must also emphasize that public transit is a priority for me, as a former Minister of the Environment. It's important for the major cities, such as Quebec City, Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. We're ready to do more in that sector as well.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I would now like to leave a little of my time for my colleague Mr. Brown so that he can ask a final question.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Minister Baird, the highlight for me of watching all these infrastructure announcements that you've made across the country was the opening of the GO Train in Barrie. Provincial Liberals in attendance commented affectionately about how fast the federal government was moving on infrastructure. I consider this to be a tremendous sign of cooperation—the McGuinty Liberal government is now praising your work.

I thought maybe you could comment on how this has been successful in Ontario. What are your findings on the success of the infrastructure agreement with the province of Ontario?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

That's a tough one, but I'll take a stab at it.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

During the economic downturn, for the most part, we've seen people put aside partisan politics and try to work in the national interest, although there have been some bumps along the road. I served with Mr. McGuinty for 10 and a half years. I was an aggressive critic. When I had that responsibility, I used to sit directly opposite the minister I now work with. I think we can put politics aside and do what's best for the people.

It's not unknown to Ms. Foote or others on the committee that we have not always had a perfect working relationship with the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. But we've been able to that aside and do what's best for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. We've also been able to work with a Liberal governments in British Columbia and New Brunswick.

I've even noticed, in particular in my own province of Ontario, federal and provincial members who weren't on the best of terms beginning to work well together, whether it's in central Ontario, eastern Ontario, or southwestern Ontario. I think that speaks well for the political system.

I think the public wants to see everyone on the same page. They want to see everyone in the same boat with an oar in the water, rowing together. If we work together, we can do three times as much for the economy in job creation and infrastructure investments. Still, leadership does come from the top, and I think in the province of Ontario the Prime Minister and Premier McGuinty have provided that leadership.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Just before we wrap up your testimony, Minister, I know the member for Willowdale, to whose very warm invitation you responded today, wanted to thank you. She might have one question she would append to the thank you.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Minister, I do wish to thank you and everyone else for being here.

I just had one clarification, though, that I would like—

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I thought you were stalking me for a while in question period.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Only out of pure affection.

When the Building Canada Fund was announced in 2007, it was done with much fanfare. This was to be long-term, predictable funding to build the infrastructure that we needed in this country. It was announced in 2007. We know that of the allocations that were made for 2007 to 2009, less than 5% actually flowed. Today, you yourself acknowledged that the Building Canada Fund has simply not worked. How are you managing to speed things up, when all of the stimulus infrastructure money is supplied in the same fashion as the money for the Building Canada Fund, with a matching funds requirement?

I have before me a one-page application form for money from the fund. If indeed you are speeding this up somehow, does this provide accountability? As for the attestation at the bottom, where the applicant warrants that the project would not be built without federal funds, we are hearing that people are attesting this even though it's not true, just to get the money. This calls the accountability into question. How are you speeding things up with a program that's built exactly like the Building Canada Fund? Is the level of accountability adequate?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

You mentioned a number of things.

I think that as a member of Parliament, you have a responsibility. If you're aware of a single fraud by a municipality making a false attestation, you have a responsibility to report that.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

And you do know that we are getting these on a no-names basis, specifically because—

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

So you can't name a single municipality where this is happening?

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I would actually suggest, Minister—

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I was worried there for a minute.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

—that if this is an application coming to the department, I would hope the department is checking the veracity of the application.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I was worried there for a moment. You sort of indicated that you had a good number of examples.

The fundamental premise behind this—and it's not complicated—with this stimulus money, which is $4 billion extra, $12 billion across government of new money to provide economic stimulus....

Just down the street from Parliament Hill, Bank Street is being repaired. It was going to be repaired before the economic statement this year. What we didn't want to do is simply have the municipality pull money out and put federal and provincial money in. We wanted this to be something above and beyond what you'd normally do. And I have to say, generally speaking, that's been fairly well responded to.

With respect to Building Canada, you perhaps went further than I would have. I said there were some really legitimate concerns about Building Canada. I didn't say it wasn't working.

I'll give you an example from just about five or ten kilometres from your own constituency. Two years ago we announced funding for the Spadina subway extension, and no money has flowed. The reason is that they just started construction a few weeks ago, and they hadn't invoiced us yet. You don't build a $2 billion subway expansion overnight. It takes a huge amount of planning and contracting and engineering work.

So Building Canada is for the larger projects, the ones that simply.... You can't build a subway or a major public transit thing in two years. The stimulus funding, by and large, will be for smaller projects, where they can move more quickly, where things are more short term.

I think it is important that we respond and that there are good investments and benefits beyond the jobs created in the short term, and beyond the infrastructure, whether they're environmental or they're reducing congestion, or whether it's supporting the economy and economic growth.

But I think what we are doing is accelerating Building Canada. In large measure, some of that is political bickering. If we can use these economic hard times and the good relationships that are developing unexpectedly at the federal-provincial relations table, let's strike while the iron is hot and get a lot of approvals in place, even though they'll go well beyond 2011. Building Canada goes until 2014, but I'm saying let's get these projects approved now for 2012, because you can't just flick a switch and start a billion-dollar project. We're striking while the iron is hot to try to make things happen.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

I want to thank you, Minister, and your officials for your attendance today. It has been very helpful.

Colleagues, we'll suspend for two minutes while we bring in our next witness from Treasury Board on the subject of stimulus spending.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

I call the meeting to order, colleagues.

We're back in session, and the second part of our meeting involves a review, in very prompt order, of the supplementary estimates (A), which were tabled less than a couple of hours ago in the House. Returning as witnesses, we have Mr. Alister Smith, assistant secretary, expenditure management sector from the Treasury Board Secretariat; and Mr. Brian Pagan, executive director, expenditure operations and estimates division.

We have the experts in front of us, so I'm pretty sure members will have questions with respect to actual spending for stimulus purposes under previous or existing Treasury Board authorizations.

Mr. Smith, if you have an opening statement with respect to this, please proceed.

[Alister Smith, Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you once again for the invitation to attend. With me is my colleague Brian Pagan, who is Executive Director, Expenditure Operations and Estimates.

Today, the President of the Treasury Board tabled Supplementary Estimates (A) for 2009-10. This is only the second year in the last decade that the government has filed supplementary estimates in the spring. We have circulated a brief deck providing the highlights.

These supplementary estimates include $5 billion in voted budgetary initiatives, including $1.6 billion of budget 2009 initiatives. They also report on an additional $1.8 billion of allocations from the budget implementation vote, TB vote 35, for budget 2009 initiatives. A total of $3.4 billion in voted spending on budget initiatives is, therefore, reported in this package. The supplementary estimates also provide information on a $50 billion non-budgetary initiative for CMHC's insured mortgage purchase plan, designed to stimulate housing construction.

Individual budget 2009 initiatives are tagged for easy identification in the supplementary estimates (A) document, tabled today, and in the explanation of requirements section for each department or agency.

As mentioned previously, TB vote 35 is an extraordinary time-limited mechanism created, through Parliament's approval, to facilitate budget implementation. Based on Parliament's approval of interim supply, funds can be allocated by TB ministers from this central vote during the April 1 to June 30 timeframe, to meet cash requirements for budget 2009 initiatives in advance of supply for supplementary estimates (A) or (B).

The list of budget 2009 initiatives funded from TB vote 35 up to April 30 can be found on pages 77 to 82 of the supplementary estimates (A) document. Further allocations from this vote are expected as departments finalize terms and conditions of budget programs.

Allocations for the period from May 1 to June 30 will be reported in supplementary estimates (B) documents. These allocations will also be reported in the quarterly reports for June, September, and December.

In summary, with the approval of supplementary estimates (A), the total funding for 2009-10 budget initiatives, taking into account tax reduction measures and new loan authorities, will be in excess of $20 billion. In addition to the supps (A) and TB vote 35 measures reported here, this includes $10 billion of support in the Budget Implementation Act, as well as ways and means measures such as the home renovation tax credit and loan authorities for the auto industry and housing-related infrastructure.

Thank you. We would be happy to take questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Thank you, Mr. Smith

Ms. Hall Findlay, for eight minutes.