Evidence of meeting #5 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was vote.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bill Matthews  Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Derek Armstrong  Director, Expenditure Analysis, Treasury Board Secretariat

4:35 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

We are resuming the public meeting.

We will continue our fifth meeting by dealing with the second subject on the agenda: follow-up of the study conducted during the first session of the 41st Parliament and entitled “Review of the Process for Considering the Estimates and Supply”.

We have with us some excellent witnesses from the Treasury Board Secretariat: Mr. Matthews, Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector; Mr. Armstrong, Director, Expenditure Analysis; and Mr. Samiotis, Director, Expenditure Management Sector.

Thank you for coming.

I will give you some time to make your presentation. Following that, committee members will have an opportunity to ask you questions on it.

With no further ado, I give the floor to Mr. Matthews.

4:35 p.m.

Bill Matthews Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for having invited us today to talk about the government's response to the committee's report dealing with strengthening parliamentary review of the estimates.

To help me today, I am accompanied by two colleagues: Mr. George Samiotis and Mr. Derek Armstrong. Since he has in-depth knowledge of our database, Mr. Armstrong will take about 10 minutes to tell you about it. Then we will be more than pleased to answer your questions.

Derek, please proceed.

4:35 p.m.

Derek Armstrong Director, Expenditure Analysis, Treasury Board Secretariat

Good afternoon everyone. Thank you for having invited us today. It is my pleasure to tell you about our database.

The expenditure database was released in April. I'm just going to do a quick demonstration of the features that are available within the database and describe the information that is also available there.

Before we start, though, please keep in mind that the information you're going to see is all available publicly, either in public accounts or in departmental quarterly financial reports, so there's nothing secret about it.

The expenditure database is hosted on the Treasury Board website. If you are searching for it as a member of Parliament or the public, the easiest way to find it is through Google: just Google the expenditure database and it should be the top hit on most computers. Once you click on the link from Google, it will bring you to this web page here, with the Treasury Board of Canada's website.

You'll see here on the landing page that there's a brief overview of how to navigate the expenditure database, and from there you can just select this link to pick the government organization that you would like to look at.

Users can search for organizations using a number of means, either by selecting from a list of ministries and the organizations that fall within them or by selecting from alphabetical lists or a list of organizations by the magnitude of their expenditures. Alternately, you can use the same Google search feature that you might be familiar with. In this case, we'll select Indian and Northern Affairs Canada—and I'll just select it here. We're going to use this organization as the organization to demonstrate the features for the entire presentation today.

Once you arrive at the web page for Indian Affairs and Northern Development Canada, you're presented with some quick summary information. There's some non-financial information about the organization, the legal title, who the responsible minister is, and also a bit about the mandate of the organization.

If you look on the right-hand side, you'll see other organizations that fall within the same ministry.

Scrolling down, you're presented with several panels of financial information. This is a quick summary to give you a flavour of the operational results of the organization.

As you'll see, for current year information, 2013-14 in this case, we've taken information from quarterly financial reports to present current year authorities and to show, in this case, what has been provided through main estimates and supplementary estimates (A). As well, we have the statement of authorities and expenditures, as reported in quarterly financial reports, and expenditures by standard object.

Just to give an example, if we click on the details of the statement of authorities and expenditures, it will take you to the familiar header, and scrolling down provides you with a bit more information about exactly what is shown within this page.

Where it becomes more interesting, though, is below, where we present a graphical presentation of exactly what the department's expenditures looked like by the different types of voted or statutory expenditures. You'll see in the case of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada that grants and contributions are the largest portion of the department's expenditures, whereas there are others here that you can also explore.

Beyond the graphical presentation, we give you the goods. We give you the data in a form where you can compare the actual operating results as presented in the quarterly financial reports.

In this case, if you were to take an example of the operating results for this department, you could compare immediately the 2013-14 results to the 2012-13 results and see that there was quite an increase, from about $1.16 billion last year to $1.4 billion this year. So it begs the question immediately, what happened here? It gives you an indication of something important that has changed in the financials.

That's the power of this information. It presents you immediately with the financial results, and then, at the same time, you can, within the same page, scroll up to the actual quarterly financial results and click on that to be brought to the department's own report, for additional context. In this case, if you search through the quarterly financial report, you'll find context about that increase. In this case, there is a table that will detail all of these specific elements that resulted in the operating variance year to year.

I won't dwell on that. I'm going to go back to our original set of financial summary panels. You'll see that was the current year financial information. We also present historical financial information. In this case, I'm going to show an example of expenditures by program. This is a topic that is quite popular in terms of financial and operating results. By clicking on the details for this tab here, we're again brought to the same header, with some brief information about the department, a description of what expenditures by programs actually mean, and then a few interesting graphics that are also searchable here. These graphics provide you with a quick look at the trend for any particular program you're interested in. In this case, I'll search for one related to education, and you'll see there is one result here and it provides you with the trend of expenditures for this department on education. You'll see that's quite steady over the past three years.

Similarly, we provide the data table that underlies all of these graphics, and you'll see that for Indian Affairs and Northern Development Canada there is quite a list of programs. You can get the straight data here, which is also available through open data, for further analysis.

Going back once again to our financial panels, I'd like to show that we also have started adding selected topics for additional detail. In this case, we have added in transfer payments, which is information recently released by Public Works and Government Services Canada in a very useful electronic format. If we select the details for these programs here, we're brought again to a further graphical presentation of expenditures by transfer payments, by fiscal year. As you see, you can select any fiscal year that you're interested in, and there is a quick graphical summary of those expenditures by fiscal year.

Similarly, you can search for a specific transfer payment within this tool. Let's say we would like to look at residential schools. There are actually quite a number of transfer payments related to this, so selecting one you can see immediately what the total budgetary authority was for these transfer payments and what the expenditures are related to those. If you wish to look only at either the total budgetary or the expenditures, you can click to de-select or focus on only one of them at a time. Similarly, the data table is available below with all of these.

One feature that I would like to highlight, just in bringing this to a close, is the expenditures by program. Under the details for expenditures by program, there is a feature we built into the expenditure database that allows you to compare programs that are similarly named across government. By scrolling to the data table at the bottom, the example I like to choose is for internal services, because it has often been reported in the press.

By clicking on internal services for 2011-12, you will see that a table is brought up that shows the expenditures of that department on internal services within the context of all departments reporting internal services for the government. By scrolling to the bottom, you can get a government total for spending on internal services.

Now, this is very interesting, as far as an analytical tool goes, because that total is not provided somewhere in the Public Accounts of Canada. We have taken the labour away from having to add up all of those items individually, and with a click you can get that information at a Government of Canada level.

With that, my demonstration is concluded, and I would like to turn it back to Mr. Matthews.

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Bill Matthews

Thank you, Mr. Armstrong.

Mr. Chair, as you know, the committee report contains 16 recommendations, but in fact, 8 of them target government operations.

The database is one of those eight recommendations, and I did think it was worth spending a few minutes on it to give an appreciation of how it might be useful to committee members in studying estimates. Before this database existed, you would have had to look at public accounts, main estimates, quarterly financial reports, reports on plans and priorities, and departmental performance reports to get this flavour of information.

It is not quite a year old yet, the database. It has come a long way. We still intend to add additional things to this as time goes on, so it will continue to grow, but we are quite proud of this tool.

This is only one of the eight recommendations that were targeted at the government. We are happy to take questions on the database or any of the other recommendations as well.

Thank you very much.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Thank you for your presentation.

I will now give the floor to committee members. We will start with Mr. Blanchette, who has five minutes.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our witnesses, especially for the presentation on the database. Each time, I see that it is developing and going in the right direction. In passing, I greatly appreciate the work that has been done to date.

If I may, however, I would like to ask some questions on the database. It was not created for parliamentarians. In fact, since it is on the Web, it is available to the public. It is an ambitious exercise, and I fully understand that the work cannot be perfect right from the get go. I want to ask you some questions from that perspective.

For example, you mentioned, among other things, that you could compare internal services. For the average Canadian, internal services don't mean very much. Do you plan to include some kind of glossary so that people can understand what those things mean? That is an example.

4:50 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Bill Matthews

Thank you for the question.

Indeed, it is very important to be able to explain the context in order to clearly explain the figures.

As the database continues to evolve, it's very easy to put numbers on a page. What is a greater challenge is words, to get consistency. So you're absolutely correct that it would be helpful to have definitions.

There are places where internal services are defined, but they are not easily linked to this database at this stage. We will continue to work on that, and we do need to do further work on internal services definitions to make sure that the data is captured in a consistent manner across departments, because internal services are human resources, financial services, information technology. It would be useful to have an appreciation of that, I agree.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

Thank you very much.

Could you give committee members an overview of the work to come? What are your targets for the coming months with respect to development of the database as such?

4:50 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Bill Matthews

Our biggest future challenge is providing information on program performance.

It's very useful to know how much was spent on a certain program. What is a greater challenge for us is to be able to capture and produce performance targets and performance information about specific programs.

If you went to reports on plans and priorities and departmental performance reports, you would get that flavour of information, but the data itself is more unstructured in nature, so it's difficult to pick up, not like financial figures.

That's our next challenge. I can't give you a firm timeframe for that one because it is more challenging. In the more immediate future, we will be picking up the next quarter's financial results and placing those on a database as each quarter expires, and you will see the quarterly information grow as the year goes on.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

Okay. Thank you very much.

Were you able to provide information on horizontal programs within the database, so that the development of those programs can be monitored?

4:50 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Bill Matthews

That is on our list of things to look at. It is not there right now. There is a separate database with horizontal initiatives that you can access through the Treasury Board Secretariat, but it would be a very logical addition to this set of information.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

Thank you very much.

Do I have any time left?

4:50 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Yes.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

You mentioned transfer payments, and now, you are beginning to make data available almost in real time. Will the general public be able to capture this data one day, export it, put it in a spreadsheet and manipulate it? Will the public be able to do such things?

4:50 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Bill Matthews

Yes, it is possible to do so. At this time, one can use the database to find information, but if one wishes to take the information

and export it into Excel or a tool like that, you cannot do it from the database. But you can go to the Government of Canada's open data website, and all of the data that underlies this is available there. One can take that data and transfer it into Excel, or whatever else you like, and run your own reports. That's the way to do it.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

Thank you.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Thank you, Mr. Blanchette.

Ms. Ablonczy, you have five minutes.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Ablonczy Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you. I think you have a right to be proud of the work you've done. It's certainly a huge amount of work, and it's very important.

What is your understanding of the purpose of this database?

4:55 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Bill Matthews

I think it's twofold. When we think about parliamentarians and specifically the work done by this committee in producing its report on Parliament's scrutiny of the estimates, there were many questions and concerns raised about the volume of paper that an interested member of Parliament would have to go through to understand what was in the main estimates.

A very logical first question, if you've seen the main estimates, might be, what did the department have last year? How much of that money did they spend? How much have they spent so far this year, if we're in the middle of the year? Wouldn't it be nice if we could see that all in one area?

The way the government responded to that concern was twofold. One, in the main estimates now there is piece of paper that provides that summary, but for those members who are more technologically inclined, they can go to the database, find out more about the mandate of the department, get information in detail about how they spent their money—is it on goods and services, salary, contracts, that sort of thing?—and also get information on the programs of the department. So it was twofold.

We did want to make it a useful tool for Canadians. For that reason, it was built using tools and techniques that would be familiar to most Canadians who are familiar with the Internet. It does work a little bit like Google.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Ablonczy Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Is it correct to sum up and say that the purpose of the database is to enhance accessibility and contextualization of information?

4:55 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Bill Matthews

That would be correct, and also to really make it easier, to facilitate ease of use.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Ablonczy Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

I am not a numbers person, and I quickly admit that, not that it could be hidden for too long. You are all numbers people and are very, very capable in this area.

Could you give me some idea, in your view, as someone who understands this information, of the percentage of Canadians who could understand and massage the data in such a way that it would really enhance their understanding, knowledge, and insight into the spending of government?

4:55 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Bill Matthews

I wouldn't be able to give a firm number on the number of Canadians. I would say this. For anyone who is interested in learning about government spending, whether you are an expert or are just starting fresh, this is a great way to learn because you can get everything from the mandate of a department—what's their business—to some very high-level information, and if you are more inclined, you can drill down and get lots of details.

I think it's a useful tool to educate—

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Ablonczy Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Yes, I understand that. Obviously there's a lot of information there, but the real question is...this is very complex information. You have dominos, right? Yes, you're spending on education, but how does that intersect with other spending that impacts on education?

Realistically, although I think it's helpful for people at your level, my question is what could an ordinary Canadian glean from this that would help him or her understand how government operates or how a department operates, or how even a program of a department operates?

4:55 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Bill Matthews

If there's a certain category in mind, they can certainly do searches on that, so that would help answer a specific question. If you're dealing with a more basic level of knowledge, someone coming at it fresh, the best place to start is probably with the main estimates themselves. There's a three-page summary of government spending and changes, and it's written in a way that most people would understand. That's a nice starting point. As I said, the advantage to this is it can answer specific questions or provide general information.