Evidence of meeting #38 for Health in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ends.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Peter Selby  Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health
John Britton  Professor of Epidemiology, University of Nottingham, United Kingdom, UK Centre for Tobacco and Alcohol Studies
Armando Peruga  Program Manager, World Health Organization's Tobacco Free Initiative

11:40 a.m.

Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Dr. Peter Selby

We're not saying that. We certainly believe that prevention comes...and we know what works for prevention: access, price, family values, and good living conditions. All those social developments prevent kids from getting addicted. Having good prenatal care, all of those things have been shown.... So clearly that work continues. The issue, clearly, is warning people about the dangers. We have cigarette package warnings with the phone number to a quit line; we've seen that. It does not reach people—

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON

I'd like to get one more question in. It's around my same concern.

I should tell you that not all parliamentarians were pleased that CAMH made a public statement that we should legalize marijuana and have regulations, because we don't believe that criminals and drug dealers, who disobey the criminal law, are going to somehow magically obey regulations. We don't believe that people who buy drugs in the street and in bars are going to go into government-run stores and buy a product they might see as inferior. In fact, we think it would lead—and the evidence is with alcohol use—to the proliferation of marijuana among young people. So we're disappointed in that.

Why are you at CAMH not focusing on warning the people of Canada about these potential new risks of using e-cigarettes to smoke marijuana or other drugs, instead of looking at ways to say, “Well, they might be helpful, so let's see how it goes?”

11:40 a.m.

Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Dr. Peter Selby

They are warned. They are advised, but when we see that 40% of kids are using marijuana, that our hospital is full of kids with psychoses because they got marijuana. We don't know whether it was the marijuana or the marijuana spiked with methamphetamine or cocaine, or problems like that. We say, “Hey, wait a minute, these kids are getting into big trouble not only from the consumption of marijuana but also from the contaminants of the marijuana”. Then they end up with a criminal record and go down a path that then will make them much more likely to land in jail, less likely to be productive members of society.

Ours is a very pragmatic approach. This is the lesson learned from prohibition regarding alcohol. If you look at what happened with prohibition—

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON

I need to interrupt because my time is almost finished.

If you compare alcohol use after prohibition to before prohibition—and this is a myth actually that America was in great shape before prohibition—America was not in great shape. It was the worst problem they ever had, that any country has had with alcohol before prohibition.

People were drinking far too much. They were drinking during the day; they were drinking at work. Prohibition did solve that problem to a large degree. Prohibition was not a complete failure. I'm not suggesting we bring prohibition back, but let's not keep repeating that myth. Let's not compare our regulatory regime now to prohibition, because that's not realistic.

11:45 a.m.

Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Dr. Peter Selby

Every regulatory regime will get you so far, after which you start plateauing the impact of that. I don't want people to walk away saying that e-cigarettes are the magic bullet that will fix everything, but it certainly does require study.

It does require regulatory framework under which we can look at changing how the product is delivered and how it's used, so that you minimize its impact on all of society. You're right, there is no single framework, whether we ban something or we keep it legal, that will solve these human problems, but we certainly can have the maximum benefit to the most and produce an equity by having these frameworks.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ben Lobb

Mr. Morin, for five minutes.

October 28th, 2014 / 11:45 a.m.

NDP

Dany Morin NDP Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Thank you, and thank you so much for your testimony.

You mentioned in your comments that right now people can smoke e-cigarettes in restaurants, and I've seen this in Ottawa restaurants, which bothered me. You said that currently those e-cigarettes can be sold to minors, that there might be dubious advertising practices from those companies, and that there is no education program or awareness campaign coming from the government or organizations.

Basically right now, we are all doing this for regular cigarettes. Would you say that as a first step to regulate e-cigarettes, we should have the same model and regulations that we have for cigarettes, and if it doesn't apply, that we remove those regulations that pertain to e-cigarettes?

11:45 a.m.

Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Dr. Peter Selby

Yes. We talked about the short-term and the long-term effects. In the short-term, not to undermine the comprehensive regulatory frameworks that exist in most provinces, absolutely, e-cigarettes should be regulated exactly like a combustible cigarette in terms of where people smoke and who they are sold to.

Clearly, that will be the first way to not re-normalize the act of smoking in public places. So I agree with you, that's an easily, feasible, doable first step.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Dany Morin NDP Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Thank you. You also mentioned that propylene glycol is probably not harmful in a single inhaled dose, but we don't know if the repeated use of propylene glycol in lungs is harmful. Can you expand on that? Are there some studies that are perhaps not long-term but middle-term or short-term?

11:45 a.m.

Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Dr. Peter Selby

Well, in the short term, the FDA regulation describes it as generally accepted as safe for humans. That comes from propylene glycol being used as a delivery mechanism in many of the asthma inhalers, which is where we've got the human exposure data from. But again, with an asthma inhaler, the person sprays maybe once or twice a day, as opposed to puffing back or whiffing on that e-cigarette through the whole day and becoming a chain user of it. You may be getting yourself a very large exposure to propylene glycol, for which we don't have any understanding whether it is harmful or not.

The same thing applies if somebody drinks alcohol in a small quantity for a standard drink every other day: their risk of harm is small. Of course, they could be harmed if they tripped, fell, and hurt themselves, but clearly, the risk of harm to somebody who's consuming a whole 40-ouncer every day is going to be much greater. It's not that the quality of the alcohol has shifted; it's the amount of exposure that makes a difference.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Dany Morin NDP Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Thank you.

Last week we heard from other witnesses that an Ontario study done in 2013 said that 15% of kids in grades 9 to 12 had smoked e-cigarettes, which is troubling. What do you think of that statistic, and how did it come to that?

11:50 a.m.

Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Dr. Peter Selby

As I said, because it can be sold anywhere. It's a novelty product that has all these flavourings. It's attractive. People are seeing Hollywood stars doing it in movies or on TV shows, so you're starting to get this renormalization of the behaviour. Also, as we all know, our adolescent years are the times when we try different things. Some kids are more vulnerable than others to getting addicted, because of their biology or their social circumstances, or a combination of that.

It is troubling that kids are beginning to.... Canada has been pretty good in bringing smoking down really low in kids, and we should figure out ways to keep it that way. We see the big jump when cigarettes become legal.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Dany Morin NDP Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Thank you very much.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ben Lobb

To round out our hour, Mr. Lunney.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC

Thank you very much.

Thanks for your contribution to this study that we're really only beginning to wade into.

I want to pick up on the concerns with kids. Vapour delivery mechanisms can deliver a whole lot of other things besides nicotine. I think, perhaps, we're a little naive to think that for children engaging in the new “ vaping” trend, their drug of choice would be nicotine. There are already all kinds of stuff on the Internet about how to take your dried marijuana with propylene glycol and prepare your own preparation.

Of course, that is a very serious concern, because there's not the scent that's normally associated with marijuana when they vaporize it. Therefore, parents may not know. School officials may not know that they're toking up by their locker. That's certainly a concern to many of us.

But it's beyond marijuana. Vaporizing, of course, is a very powerful delivery mechanism for all kinds of physiologically active chemicals. There's no end to the list of other chemicals that might also be applied to this readily available and inexpensive technology. Is that a concern for you at your agency?

11:50 a.m.

Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Dr. Peter Selby

Most definitely, because we see patients who have the worst addictions, and in many cases these are the things that, because of the ready availability and use of it.... Absolutely, the unregulated.... It's the wild west, in what people can put out there. We have even seen electronic shishas, or water pipes, being developed and somebody making an e-cigarette on one of those printable home printers. So we are keeping our eyes open, and I think we do need to have a regulatory framework that stops the harms right away, but also in that rush to stop the harm that we don't lose and inadvertently perpetuate the continued sale of cigarettes in society today.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC

In terms of re-normalization, we know there's a whole psychological and neurological phenomena associated with smoking. It's timing—after eating—and it's the mechanics of what to do with your hands and so on. For many smokers, the great successes we've made have been because of the restrictions we've brought in on where you can smoke, on smoke-free areas and so on. It's like a get-out-of-jail-free card with regard to the social stigma for many smokers who might be on the verge of quitting or who are now having a great opportunity to switch, when they have trouble smoking, to a "vaping" program. Is that not going to help them perpetuate their problem rather than break the habit they might be on the verge of quitting?

11:50 a.m.

Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Dr. Peter Selby

There are two ways to look at that. One is, when they start doing dual use, is that actually an exit strategy from cigarettes completely or is it a stable state? We don't have the science to suggest what it is, but we do have something to point to. As shown in a study by my colleague, Robert West, in the U.K., who I think is presenting to you, if you look at a population, you will see that before they make that attempt at quitting, often the population will have started reducing their cigarette use before they quit. So anything that can help people to reduce.... Generally, we need to study to see if it actually translates into quitting. The unanswered question with e-cigarettes is whether it becomes, as you rightly pointed out, a matter of, “I will smoke when I can, and when I can't smoke, I'll vape”.

It's a great unanswered question right now.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC

What causes me some concern are the heating elements themselves and the metal, the way they're produced, the temperatures, the batteries. What other toxic chemicals are being released? Are we ingesting metal vapours which can be very highly toxic? What information do we have? Has anybody studied any of these aspects? Do we have any quantitative data at this point?

11:55 a.m.

Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Dr. Peter Selby

Yes, there are some studies out of Virginia Commonwealth University, as well as recent studies at Buffalo, where they have been looking at the heavy metals that are coming out of these products.

Having said that, this is rapidly changing technology. In fact, very quickly after I brought up the concern that a kid could pull back and vape on one of these high-voltage low-resistance devices, within a few months the distributor brought back to me an e-cigarette they had manufactured in China, which had a safety device to get it powered up. It was a child-proof lock.

What we are studying today is changing so rapidly that we don't know if engineering principles can be brought to bear to reduce the vaporization of any heavy metals. Would coating with an inert compound the heating element eliminate the heavy metal that comes out of the copper that is currently used?

We are not experts. We rapidly are having to reach out to engineering colleagues and others who know this, because the market is moving faster than we are able to.... We are behind the eight ball in understanding it.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ben Lobb

It's time. Thank you very much, Mr. Lunney.

Thank you, Dr. Selby, for your time. We always appreciate your contributions here on the health committee.

11:55 a.m.

Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Dr. Peter Selby

Thank you very much for having me.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ben Lobb

We're going to suspend for a few minutes to allow our technical team to get in sync with the U.K. and Switzerland, and then we'll reconvene.

Thanks again.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ben Lobb

Thank you. We're back in session here.

I would like to welcome two guests, Professor John Britton and Dr. Armando Peruga. Welcome gentlemen. We're having our second meeting on e-cigarettes in our health committee here. We appreciate your taking the time out of your day to help us in our quest for knowledge. We'll have each of you present for 10 minutes and then we'll follow it up with some rounds of questions.

So, Professor Britton, if you would do us a favour and begin, that would be appreciated. Go ahead, sir.

Noon

Dr. John Britton Professor of Epidemiology, University of Nottingham, United Kingdom, UK Centre for Tobacco and Alcohol Studies

Thank you to you and the committee for the invitation here to give evidence. I do so as professor of epidemiology at the University of Nottingham. I'm director of the UK Centre for Tobacco and Alcohol Studies, a research network based in the U.K. for alcohol policy and practice, and I chair the Royal College of Physicians' tobacco advisory group. It was in that role that I led the production of a report called Harm Reduction in Nicotine Addiction, which was published in 2007 and called for exploitation of the opportunity to provide smokers with alternative sources of nicotine to reduce the death and disability caused by tobacco smoking. We used as our proof of concept that it can work the experience that the Swedes have had with oral tobacco, which has resulted in very low levels of smoking prevalence and very low cancer rates.

That approach was accepted by the U.K. governments. The outgoing Labour Government published a policy strategy document that included harm reduction, and then the incoming coalition government a year later did the same thing. We've had an environment of encouragement of alternative sources of nicotine for smokers for some years in this country.

Electronic cigarettes came along just at the time that the RCP report was published in 2007. So it wasn't covered in that report but essentially went a long way towards fitting the bill of what we felt was needed to encourage smokers to use less harmful sources of nicotine—something that's socially acceptable, affordable, available in the same points of sale as tobacco cigarettes, and something that works as a tobacco substitute. It's probably fair to say that the early generation electronic cigarettes were less effective than the later generation ones, but the fact remains that these have proved extremely popular in the U.K. and many other countries since.

Earlier this year with Dr. Bogdanovica, I published a report for Public Health England, which is available on their website and which I think has been accepted by Public Health England, the organization that supervises public health in our country, as the sort of background policy or principle of electronic cigarette use and public health. The report concluded that smoking kills. We have 10 million smokers in the U.K. I don't know what the figure is in Canada, but five million of those are going to die unless they stop smoking tobacco. Although we're doing our best with conventional tobacco control policies, the prevalence of smoking is coming down steadily but slowly. Most of those smokers are alive today. Therefore five million of those smokers are alive today. Most of those will die from their smoking before existing policies touch them.

That burden of morbidity and mortality falls particularly on disadvantaged people, the socially and economically disadvantaged, those with mental health problems, and various other isolated groups in society. Electronic cigarettes provide a substitute that many of those people find acceptable. We have found that by switching as a lifestyle choice rather than something that's medicalized involving a commitment to quit smoking, a couple of million of our smokers in the U.K. are now occasional or regular users of electronic cigarettes and about 700,000 are now exclusive users. Seven hundred thousand people quitting smoking by swapping to an alternative source over the course of about four years is more than our National Health Service smoking cessation services have achieved in over a decade.

We therefore feel that electronic cigarettes and the products that are in development that follow them into the market offer huge potential health benefits, which will be accrued particularly by the most disadvantaged in society. But they also pose risks to society. A number of them—too many to list here—include renormalization of smoking, concerns over long-term safety, use by the tobacco industry to re-engage in tobacco policy, use as a dark marketing tool by tobacco companies, promotion to children to establish new generation of nicotine addicts and many other risks. We feel that all of these deserve concern, but all of those can be managed and it would be a mistake to throw the baby out with the bath water by restricting electronic cigarettes so severely as to prevent the benefits to existing smokers.

Already in this country electronic cigarettes are being used by many more people than use conventional nicotine replacement therapies. The latest evidence from the Smoking in England website, which is a rolling survey of smokers, is that the prevalence of use has levelled off and is about one in five smokers.

On the pros and cons of how these products can be regulated, I can only comment on what's happening in the U.K., where we currently cover them under general sales regulations and which do not require demonstration that the products work. So a smoker can go out and spend a lot of money on one of these things and get no nicotine from it. Nor do we have guarantees of their safety. I think most people accept that this is an unsatisfactory situation. We do have legislation in progress and voluntary agreement recently accepted to stop advertising and selling to children.

The MHRA, our medicine regulatory agency, has recognized these nicotine products as a good thing for public health and stepped back from defining them as medicines a year or so ago, but have offered what they call right-touch regulation of medicines as a route to market for manufacturers. The idea was that the right-touch regulation would be a simplified version of medicines regulation or licensing. In my opinion it isn't working out that way and it remains extremely cumbersome.

From 2016 or 2017, depending on which products, all electronic cigarettes will come under the control of the European tobacco products directive, which will impose limits on emissions and amounts of nicotine delivered according to standards that have yet to be set. We have no idea what they will involve, but they will limit the maximum dose delivered by the products so as to render them ineffective. That's unsatisfactory regulation and we don't have a suitable way out.

Going back to the original RCP report, what we argued was that the only solution to this is to regulate nicotine differently from other products, and that tobacco and non-tobacco products should all come into a consistent system. This allowed market freedoms in direct proportion to the relative safety of the product, therefore making cigarettes extremely unaffordable and difficult to get hold of, but making it increasingly easy to get hold of nicotine substitutes. I would like to see us doing that, but I don't think it's going to happen.

A final thing that is very important to the monitoring of electronic cigarettes, and realizing the potential they offer, is that you must have very effective monitoring or prevalence monitoring in place. In the U.K. we have that on a relatively small-scale survey. If we do this then it's possible to see where the abuses are and to deal with them early. At the moment in the U.K., use among smokers, as I've said, is about 20% exclusive use to the exclusion of cigarettes and about 7% of smokers. Use among children and young people is almost entirely limited to those who smoke, with about 1% or 2% of young people who are non-smokers ever experimenting with the product. At the moment the impression is that electronic cigarettes are providing a very powerful force for the good in English public health, and we hope that can continue.

Thank you.