Evidence of meeting #72 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was area.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

11:20 a.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

If I may conclude, Mr. Chair, I would just point out to colleagues that with the greatest of respect, I think there's a mountain of evidence. We've now got it as close as we're going to get it, in terms of right, in Hamilton.

I respect the member's point of view. I'm not sure why he's here as a caucus or party representative as opposed to someone who has an immediate impact or interest in it. However, notwithstanding that, I think most would agree that there has not been any kind of evidence, let alone a strong case, that suggests that the current proposal, as proposed and adopted by the community, should be in any way changed. I urge members to stand by the commission's work, stand by the local members of both parties who agree that we have the best proposal we're going to get for the people of Hamilton right now.

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

With all respect to my colleague, I would simply say that some argument did cause the commission to change its mind between the first proposal and the second.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

With respect, we pointed out to them that they made a little mistake, and they agreed.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Time.

Monsieur Dion, five minutes, please.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC

I'll split my time.

A point of order, again. This is the first time that a colleague is a member of the committee and arguing for his riding. That's not proper to the way this committee should work.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

The expertise is at the table and it's answering questions.

It's your time, Mr. Dion, if you'd like to use it—

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

A point of order for Mr. Scott.

This is new today, folks. We've had a couple.

Go ahead.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

Very quickly, we had at least one in New Brunswick.

Thank you.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

We had a member at the table who spoke about his home province. Thank you.

It's not precedent-setting, and I think we're getting good information out for the committee, so I'll take it.

Mr. Dion, five minutes.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC

I respect you, Mr. Chair.

I want to welcome my two colleagues. Thank you very much for being here.

I will speak in English because it is your language, although you both speak very good French.

Mr. Hsu, I would like to give you the opportunity to react to the very detailed and informed proposal from Mr. Reid, because his proposal will, as a consequence, split the city of Kingston.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Yes. My reaction is the following. Mr. Reid wants to add the Pittsburgh ward of Kingston to the northern riding proposed to be called Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, but it really is a community of interest with the city of Kingston.

Let me just give you one example. The sewage from the city of Kingston goes across the Cataraqui River and is treated at the Ravensview plant in the Pittsburgh district, so it's a major piece of Kingston infrastructure that crosses the river and goes into Pittsburgh.

Bus routes go from the city of Kingston. Public transit doesn't go into the rural areas of Kingston, but it does go into Pittsburgh, at least the parts of Pittsburgh that one would reasonably consider urban.

The other argument is that there are other parts of Kingston that are not urban, but rural. Those are to be found in the northwest of the city.

Let me just take some time to say that one really good thing that's come out of this process is my getting to know Mr. Reid, and that's great.

11:25 a.m.

An hon. member

Are you sure?

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Most people wouldn't think of it that way.

11:25 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

But let me just say that...now I've lost my train of thought.

Mr. Reid mentioned Kingston's rural north end. The 401 is not the boundary of the rural north end. The rural north end really includes the part of Kingston in the northwest and the northeast. There are rural parts of Kingston south of the 401. There are urban parts in the Pittsburgh ward that Mr. Reid is proposing to include in Lanark—Frontenac, and I think that should be a consideration of the commission in deciding the riding boundaries, if it is favourable to Mr. Reid's proposal.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC

Okay. Mr. Reid, can you react to Mr. Hsu?

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

Well, first of all, thank you very much for those kind words. Mr. Armstrong's opinion evidently is that you don't know me as well as you think you do, or you'd like me less. This is the kind of collegiality that we all seek to have in every caucus.

With regard to community of interest, Ted is right; if you're looking at community of interest, there's no doubt that the city of Kingston...the status quo ante achieves the community of interest in keeping a political unit together. It keeps the old Pittsburgh Township together as well. It fulfills all those goals. The trouble is that I think the population is beyond what the commission is likely to accept at this point. The problem is not so much that Kingston is too large—although clearly it was at the absolute maximum that the commission was willing to accept, 17% over. Before they changed the proposal, it was the second-largest riding in the province in population. The problem is really that Lanark—Frontenac becomes too small. At 90,000 it's way under anything else in the region. I think for that reason they're unlikely to accept it.

This would reflect my own point of view. I think what I'm proposing is the best way of reflecting community of interest, and I base that on the fact that the local officials have been telling me that. If you don't endorse what I'm proposing, I think it would make sense for you to endorse what Mr. Hsu is proposing. It is actually better than the status quo, as far as community of interest goes. Now, the commission might look at it and say they just can't go for this, that they have to think of population, which overrides community of interest concerns. But I think he is accurately reflecting a legitimate way of handling the issue. If I were in his position and I were the MP for Kingston and the Islands, I'd probably be saying the same thing.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC

So you're saying if the commission is ready to accept plus 17% and minus 15% for the two ridings, you like Mr. Hsu's proposal. If they're not, you prefer your proposal.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

Ultimately I'm arguing for my proposal. I'm aware that the rules of the committee don't allow you to endorse two proposals. If you say both Mr. Hsu and Mr. Reid have presented and we're not picking sides, I think the commission is more or less required to stick with the status quo. So I'm asking you to choose either my proposal or Mr. Hsu's proposal. I do think mine is better or I wouldn't be making it, but I do think his is better than the status quo with regard to the community of interest in Kingston.

If I might make one final note, Mr. Chair, I just want to say that I am not saying this to criticize what the commission did. They have a very difficult job, which is to try to figure things out based on the objections they hear. They heard lots of objections from Frontenac County—which I represent—and Lennox and Addington, Hastings County, and so on. In trying to deal with that, in the absence of any input defending the status quo, they were simply unaware of any communities of interest that exist in the city of Kingston, including the fact that, for example, the city wards will be redrawn so that one ward will in the future include areas on both sides of Highway 401.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC

Mr. Hsu, regarding the same point of view, would you say that you—

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you. We're well past time.

We are finished with this panel. We thank you for your input today.

We will suspend for a moment while we change the panel.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

We'll start the next part of our meeting.

Thank you, Minister Van Loan, for coming. You'll notice you're on a panel by yourself so we'd like you not to argue with each other.

April 25th, 2013 / 11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

I'll try not to.

At the outset, I want to make it clear that I'm not here as Minister Van Loan; I'm here as MP Van Loan. I'm technically the minister who oversees this process, so I wanted to make everybody aware that I did clear my participation in the process here with the Ethics Commissioner, and that is subject to my appearing solely as the member of Parliament for York—Simcoe, which I am doing.

I do want to say I support the commission's work generally all across the province of Ontario. I think they did a very good job on a very challenging project. They should be commended on that.

I am proposing a very minor change to the northern boundary on the Simcoe County side of the York—Simcoe riding. It might be easier for you to actually look at the map I've circulated that shows an overlay of the options here. That is to move the proposed northern boundary of the riding, which is the red line, to my suggested amendment line, the blue line. The affected area, obviously, is the hatched area in between.

The reason for this is that it would better reflect the way that communities exist and operate and how people live their lives in this area. People in the hatched area are generally oriented towards the south in their day-to-day lives. That would be their community of interest. They shop in the town of Bradford, to the south, and they've traditionally gone to school in Bradford West Gwillimbury to the south. They get their health care in that direction, and they tend to be involved in sports and community groups in that direction.

In fact, I can give you an example. At a recent meeting of the Bradford West Gwillimbury Local History Association, a good chunk of the people in attendance came from that hatched area, even though it's technically part of the town of Innisfil.

There's a reason so many from this area, which is technically in the town of Innisfil, are oriented to the south. That's because historically much of this area was not in Innisfil. In fact, it wasn't there until a series of amalgamations in 1991. This included the overwhelming majority of the population in question, including the village of Cookstown, which is at the west end of that area.

Only a municipal boundary change at that time, which was a kind of compensation for a series of amalgamations that happened at the other end with Barrie, brought part of these lands into the town of Innisfil—not all of them but part of them.

The clear sentiment of the active community leaders in that hatched area, the affected area, is that they would like to be associated with the area to the south and be part of that constituency. I should tell you there is really no partisan consequence from a change like this. You can transpose the numbers any time you want through any of the past several elections; the results come out essentially the same. It is a very minor change. This is being done on behalf of the people who live in this area, a request that I make on their behalf, because it is in their interest.

A little on the numbers. Right now, York—Simcoe, if you look at the numbers on the maps I have there, is significantly below the provincial quotient. When the commission initially came out with its first set of maps, they had taken all of Innisfil out of what they're proposing now. But they saw that the number for the new York—Simcoe was perhaps too low, so they tried to compensate by adding that—you can almost picture it on the bottom right, a square where you see Durham in the middle, that piece of land that is largely rural—and that would bring the numbers to a more reasonable level.

The local reaction in that area was quite strong: they wanted to remain in a Durham riding. It would have been odd; you would have had Simcoe County, part of old York County, and part of old Ontario County, now Durham region, all in one riding across three counties. They thought that was too much of a spread, so the commission carved that off in the second set of maps, but they didn't do anything else to correct the population, so York—Simcoe ends up down at 94,000. On the proposed changes, you can see York—Simcoe comes up to about 99,000, and Barrie—Innisfil, which would be the riding to the north, the south end of Barrie and the remainder of Innisfil, would be about 97,000.

Why did the commission choose the boundary it chose? I believe simply because it was a municipal boundary. It seemed a sensible thing to do from that perspective. We already have a number of exceptions in this riding where municipal boundaries have been ignored where it makes sense to do that. There are three polls in the south end that are part of King Township, but they are part of the Holland Marsh. With that community of interest, it makes sense to keep them all together in the riding. The same is the case for a chunk of land at the south end of East Gwillimbury, which is being carved out and put into Newmarket—Aurora because that's where they're more oriented. As I pointed out, this particular municipal boundary has a fairly recent date and doesn't really reflect the community of interest, so I don't believe it has the significance that would cause one to want to maintain that.

That's what I would put to you, and that simply on that basis you approve the request I have for you.

I might add one further comment, which is that it is supported by all the adjacent members of Parliament, including Patrick Brown, whose interest is in the Barrie—Innisfil riding in particular. He agrees that this is an appropriate boundary, based on his familiarity with the community.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you.

Mr. Lukiwski, are you up for this?