Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 7th, 2013

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

Bennington Heights, which is the area I'm most concerned with and was part of Don Valley West, has moved into a new riding, so there is no representation there yet. I took a historical look at it. Both Bennington Heights and Governor's Bridge are outcroppings that are isolated relative to either new ridings or old ridings. My concern was that both have a continuous community relationship with Leaside in the south end of Don Valley West, and that's why I've made the presentation I have.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you. I'll stop you there because you're close enough.

Madame Latendresse, you have five minutes please.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I'd like to ask Mr. Rae whether he consulted with the people in the neighbouring ridings to see if they were amenable to the changes he's proposing.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

The only affected riding next to mine is Ms. Chow's, which was totally changed. As you can see, there are two new ridings: the riding of Spadina—Fort York, which extends to the lake and includes a lot of condos and apartments, and the riding now called University—Rosedale.

I spoke to Ms. Chow about the possibility of changing the boundary that runs towards the Gardiner Expressway, just south. So the western boundary of the riding would change, south of College Street. The western boundary would become Yonge Street, instead of Bay Street. Ms. Chow and I are in agreement, but as she pointed out, the commission will have to determine whether these changes are justified, demographically speaking.

I believe they are, given the community of interest in the St. Lawrence Market neighbourhood. I don't want to see that area divided. I hope the commission can find a way around that division.

This is the fourth time, I believe, that the boundaries of my riding have changed since I've been in politics. It's not easy work, and I am absolutely convinced that that the commission is exercising tremendous care in order to do a good job. Changing boundaries is a very difficult task. I am certain that, if we make a good case to the commission, it will listen and do its best. I have no problem with the job the commission is doing.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you.

Madam Chow, simply to wrap up your presentation, the change that Mr. Rae is proposing will obviously impact your riding in terms of demographics. Can you please explain to us again how the community of interest is better served in the way you have described with your proposal?

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Actually, Mr. Chair, I have a more fulsome 10-page submission which I wasn't able to get translated, so I did not hand it out. I only have the English version. That one eventually will be my formal submission to you and probably to the commission.

The community of interest is really economic. There's a lot more in common between Rosedale and Forest Hill. Linguistically, Italian is spoken in 10% of the western part and the downtown university area. With regard to blue collar versus white collar, it's 80% white collar in Rosedale and Forest Hill, whereas in the area south it's 50% or so, and 60% on the west side—55% on the west side, so just based on economic....

On the built forms, Rosedale houses and Forest Hill houses are very grand because the income level is high, whereas the built forms in the St. Clair Avenue area, the Boulevard Café and all that is very similar.

I could go on about poverty also, but mostly the key area is the feel. Also Kensington Market is near the university. It's where people see themselves as being slightly different, trendy maybe. It's hard to describe them. They are eclectic. They are very artistic. They are very creative and diverse, and that's very similar to the Wychwood Barns area. It's very creative, diverse, and very artistic. That's very similar to the Grange and Kensington Market area. In fact, most of the people in the Annex and Seaton Village, in the area that I represent now, shop at Wychwood Barns every Saturday morning.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Dion, you have five minutes, please.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Carmichael, I understand your change will affect another riding, which is a new one with new representation.

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

Yes.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Is it the only riding that will be affected by what you're proposing?

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

Well, Bennington Heights, yes. Governor's Bridge is currently part of Toronto—Danforth, so there will be—

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

It's my riding.

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

Is it not part of Toronto—Danforth? It's Rosedale, my apologies. There we go.

It will affect my colleague to the east.

[An hon. member]

He's losing Rosedale.

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

He's losing Rosedale, but Governor's Bridge will be part of another riding.

The reason I included it is that these two outcroppings, if you like, were both connected at one time culturally, and so historically they have been adjoined.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Who is the other colleague affected by your change?

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

I don't know if Governor's Bridge remains part of.... I'm sorry, I should know this, and I—

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

In a sense, technically, Mr. Dion, the change on Governor's Bridge is not a change that affects the new Toronto Centre. It's a change that affects whatever new riding is created, whether it's University—Rosedale, or whether it's some other riding, but the northern part of the old Toronto Centre riding is gone.

I would just say, one thing that the commissioners might want to have to consider is whether there's a community of interest between the neighbourhood of Governor's Bridge and the community of Rosedale. There are people who live in Governor's Bridge who, for a variety of reasons, would say, “We live in Rosedale.” There are some people who like that description; there are other people who don't like that description. People describe themselves—

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Mr. Rae, your proposition will affect which other ridings?

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

The only other riding it will affect right now will be the new riding that's called Fort York. It is the commissioner's decision to build a riding right on the border of the lake. All of the condominiums that you see around the Air Canada Centre will be united, if I may say so, in one big condo riding. I am proposing that the part of that riding that's attached to Toronto Centre and which, in fact, is historically much older, still belongs in Toronto Centre, and I'm prepared to give up part of the western part of the riding in exchange for that demographic shift.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

With regard to the suggestion that you make a change with Madam Chow, you said that the demography doesn't work. Do we have the numbers on that?

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

The answer to that is yes. I don't have them right here, but the answer is yes. Frankly, it's not a big number. It's not a big population gain for Toronto Centre. It's a slight population gain for Toronto Centre.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Why are you and Madam Chow not coming with this proposition instead of the one you are proposing?

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

It's the same.

I'm proposing the same as it relates to Toronto Centre. I think it's fair to say Madam Chow has a much bigger suggestion, which doesn't affect Toronto Centre. Toronto Centre remains where it is. What her suggested changes affect is the riding of St. Paul's and how that connects to the original suggestion of the commissioners.

Mr. Dion, you can see it on the map.

If you look at the new riding of Fort York, I'm suggesting that the boundary of this area here, what I call the Fort York panhandle, should come down to the Gardiner Expressway. There are a lot of brand new condos that are being built right along the lake, and I don't think they need to be part of the riding of Toronto Centre. There's no reason that those people could not all be part of a new riding. That would be fine.

In exchange for, in a sense, taking back the territory between the Gardiner Expressway and Front Street, I'm suggesting, and Olivia is also suggesting, that the area to the west between Yonge Street and Bay Street go back to this riding here.

What Ms. Chow is suggesting is something even bigger with respect to the area north of Fort York and in her riding and in the old riding that's been created by the commission. She's suggesting another mix between this riding to go back up here and include St. Paul's in that. This is the new riding that has been created. Ms. Chow is suggesting that these parts of the riding should go together to form one new riding. Her argument is that economically this is all fairly wealthy territory so it should all go together. That would then change the rest of what's together.

I make no case for that, and certainly Carolyn Bennett, who is the representative for St. Paul's, has some pretty strong views, which I'm sure she'll be willing to express. If the commission could make the smaller changes with respect to Toronto Centre, they would have no impact on anybody else.