Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 7th, 2013

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to make sure that I'm understanding this correctly. Do I assume correctly that this will be the first time the commission has heard this proposal that you all seem to be in agreement with, and that you did not make this proposal at the public hearings? Is that correct?

[Barry Devolin, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Correct.

If you look at the current map on the ground today and you compare it to the proposal that we saw last summer which was dramatically different, there was a lot of negative reaction. The second proposal was dramatically different.

One of the frustrations that the public has is that the second draft, if I can call it that, is so different from either the first draft or the current reality. It wasn't possible for the public to comment on something which, quite frankly, nobody even conceived, before this plan landed in February.

There wasn't any comment because it wasn't on the table.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Erin.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

At the public hearings in the fall, all levels of government in my riding commented to keep Clarington whole, so the commission is very aware of that. Mr. Scott has referred to it. They're very aware of this challenge.

Their first drafts had Clarington broken into three different seats. It was recognized as a bit of a miss from the first round. They tried to address that alongside concerns that Oshawa had.

What we're proposing here, as I described earlier, is a slight tweak to their proposal, but that slight tweak allows Clarington to remain whole. Those 15,000 people and the communities that were excluded are able to be kept in. It's also complementary to Oshawa. From Oshawa and Durham's perspective, the commission has heard these concerns right from day one.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

If you've got one more question, I'll allow it.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

I'd just like to make a comment, so that our colleagues are aware of the process that we have as a committee.

In writing the reports, when all MPs affected by proposed changes are in agreement with those changes, our committee reports tend to recommend those changes to the boundaries commission. I think it's very important to understand that. If we have unanimity among the four of you on your proposal, we can actually incorporate that into our report. That's why I wanted to get some clarity that you were all completely in agreement with the proposal we've just seen.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you very much. Are there any questions from any other members? Seeing none, thank you.

I will compliment you on being well prepared and having spoken to each other ahead of time, and being able to put together a comprehensive proposal. Thank you very, very much.

We will suspend, and wait for our next panel.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

We'll call the meeting back to order.

We're still looking at the redistribution process for the province of Ontario. We have another panel here today, with Mr. Seeback, Mr. Gill, and Mr. Tilson.

We'll give each of you each five minutes and then we'll ask questions.

Mr. Seeback, you're going first.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

First of all, I want to congratulate the commission on the changes they made from the first set to the report stage. I think they took into consideration the requests that were made by people in Brampton with respect to having the downtown portion of Brampton contained within one riding. On the first set of maps, they had divided downtown Brampton in half.

For those of you who don't know, downtown Brampton is a special place for Brampton. It's the oldest part of Brampton. It's where the city originally started and then expanded outward. In my mind, it meets the definition of a community of interests.

People live in downtown Brampton and shop downtown. Whether they want to go to Gage Park, which is an absolutely beautiful park in downtown Brampton, with mature 100-year-old trees and a beautiful bandstand where there's music for the Thursday night concert series, or to the Rose Theatre to enjoy an evening at the theatre and dine in downtown restaurants, it's a great place where people work and raise their families.

When the commission made that change, I was quite pleased. The one issue I have is that the commission, probably not having knowledge of Brampton and the growth of Brampton, missed one small community that is very directly linked and attached to downtown Brampton. For those who don't know Brampton, it's an area called Northwood Park. It was built by the Rice family of Rice Construction, a great old Brampton family.

Northwood Park was built around the 1960s. In the 1960s in Brampton, there wasn't a lot more than the downtown, so the people who lived there would also shop downtown. They would seek their entertainment in the downtown part of the city. It's also an area that has low mobility. People who live there have lived there for 20, 30, 40, and 50 years.

In the history of the downtown, Northwood Park has been represented by what we would call the downtown city councillors, both regional and city. Wards 1 and 5 are both downtown wards, and they include Northwood Park.

When you look at the history of the riding boundaries in Brampton, you will see that the downtown has always been contiguously contained in a single riding. That can change depending on the definition, but when you go back in history, prior to Brampton Centre, which included the downtown, you can see that before that, it was also included in the riding of Brampton—Georgetown from 1976 to 1987.

Provincially, Northwood Park and the downtown have always been included in the same riding: Brampton West, both federally and provincially, the riding that exists now; Brampton Centre, from 1999 to 2007; and the riding of Brampton South, from 1987 to 1999. Historically, electoral commissions have recognized that it's important to keep the downtown together.

When you look at it in terms of population, all we're really looking at is 4,000 electors. It's not going to significantly deviate from the electoral norm. I think that right now the new riding of Brampton South will be 1% above the provincial quota, and adding 4,000 electors will not significantly deviate from that.

I did put together a set of maps. I think they have been distributed. If you go to page 5, that shows you the report stage map of the riding of Brampton South. I've highlighted the section of Northwood Park so you can get a visual image of what we're talking about with respect to the proposed riding boundary change. It's not a significant change. It's a very small change, but I think it reflects the importance of the downtown.

I can say unabashedly that I'm a downtown booster. I love downtown Brampton. It's my honour and my privilege to represent it. I think this will enhance the representation of downtown. The downtown historically has faced a number of challenges, whether it be with respect to economic development or maintaining a strong and vibrant downtown. I think it just makes sense that those people all be represented in one riding.

I thank the committee for allowing me to appear today. I look forward to any questions you might have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

You were right on five minutes.

Mr. Gill.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank the committee for allowing me to make my presentation.

With regard to the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Ontario, I would like to commend the commission for their hard work in creating these boundaries. Realigning these boundary lines is no easy task, as all measures must be taken to ensure that the interests of all residents living in these affected areas are taken into account.

I have been approached by many of my constituents who have requested a couple of what I would call minor changes that I would like to bring to the attention of this committee.

In the northwest part of the riding of Brampton North is a community called Snelgrove, of which a majority of the population currently falls in the riding of Brampton North, with a portion in the new riding of Brampton West.

This area is west of Highway 10, along Wanless Drive going west, and then north along the Orangeville-Brampton railway line, and east along Collingwood Avenue, and connecting back with Highway 10.

This area consists of approximately 6,500 residents who would be added to the riding of Brampton North. In order to keep the community of interest as one of the top priorities, it is important to listen to the views of the local residents and keep the entire community of Snelgrove as one in the new riding of Brampton North.

The second change the community has requested is in the east part of the riding of Brampton North. The local community would like to see the eastern boundary of Bramalea Road continue south until Bovaird Drive, and then east on Bovaird until Torbram Road; in other words, the area between Bramalea Road and east on Bovaird Drive, north on Torbram, and west on Sandalwood Parkway. This area consists of approximately 16,000 residents, who would be added to the riding of Brampton East.

In terms of the population ratio, these two boundary realignments would offer a small deviation in the overall proposed population of Brampton West, Brampton North, and Brampton East.

The community of Snelgrove that would be transferred from Brampton West to Brampton North has a population, as I mentioned earlier, of about 6,500.

The area that would be transferred from Brampton North to Brampton East has roughly 16,000 people.

This proposed boundary realignment would leave Brampton West with a population of just over 100,000, Brampton North with approximately 97,000, and Brampton East with approximately 115,000.

I've had the opportunity to consult with MP Seeback and MP Gosal about the proposal I would put forward. Both MPs are aware of and do support my argument and the proposal I'm putting before the committee.

I would also like to point out that even though the riding of Brampton East would have a slightly larger population compared to the ridings of Brampton North and Brampton West, the two ridings, Brampton North and Brampton West, are the two areas where there is a significant degree of current growth that's ongoing and projected in the future as well, so the overall numbers are well within the provincial targets that have been laid out.

That's about it. Those are the only two changes I'm requesting.

I'm happy to answer any questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Tilson, would you like to make an opening statement for five minutes?

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I first of all want to thank the commission for leaving Dufferin—Caledon alone. I kind of feel like Marlene Dietrich, who said, “I want to be alone”, and I hope the committee will as well.

I'm here because I understood that my two colleagues, Messrs. Seeback and Gill, were making presentations to the committee. I don't think they affect my riding. I'm to the north of them.

I'm simply here to watch. If the committee does choose to affect Dufferin—Caledon, I hope I will be advised so that I can appear at another time.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Certainly. Perfect.

We'll move to questions and comments. Mr. Lukiwski, would you like to start us off? You have five minutes.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Thank you. I will.

Thank you all for appearing.

I want to make sure I'm clear here and that we have clarity for the analysts as well. I'll address my comments first to Mr. Gill.

The recommended changes you're proposing affect both Mr. Seeback's riding and Mr. Gosal's riding. My understanding is there is agreement among all of the MPs that the proposal you were suggesting is one they agree with and could accept. Are there any minor changes they would like to see beyond what you have proposed?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

No. Once my proposal was prepared, I ran it by MP Seeback and MP Gosal, and both are very supportive. As a matter of fact, I received a letter, which was submitted to the clerk, that clearly outlines the change that is going to take place in the east part of the riding of Brampton North, where there's a portion we're requesting be tagged onto the riding of Brampton East, which is obviously the area Mr. Gosal currently represents.

There are roughly about 16,000 residents who would be moved over to the riding of Brampton East. It would obviously better align the community interest overall. That change only affects Minister Gosal's riding and mine.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Thank you for that last part, because currently under the commission's proposal, the population variance in Brampton East is minus 6.12%. Under your proposal it would go up to plus 9.20%. You're saying you are making those recommendations to try to keep a community of interest intact.

Have you spoken with the community of interest you're referring to? Have you spoken to residents or a community association, and are they in favour of your recommendations?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Absolutely. These changes were obviously brought to my attention by the community members. I understand Minister Gosal has also been approached about the same change. His letter clearly outlines that he's requesting the same changes I'm requesting, so absolutely.

We've looked at the overall numbers. As you mentioned, the overall population is slightly higher, so it bumps it up to about 9% in the riding of Brampton East. But the majority of the existing current growth that's ongoing in Brampton, I would say, in general is in the ridings of Brampton West and Brampton North. There is not a whole lot of room to grow in the riding of Brampton East.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

As the last observation, and I don't need a response because you have articulated this in your presentation, I understand this will be the first time this proposal will have been received by the commission, and it was only because when you saw both the first and the second maps, there was such a variance that you didn't have an opportunity at that point in time to make a presentation. Is that correct?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Absolutely.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

All right. I have no more questions, Chair.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Super.

Madam Latendresse, for five minutes.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you for your presentation. It's positive to see that, once again, everyone supports the proposals.

Just to make sure I understand the maps correctly, I need one detail clarified.

There's a new riding?

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Who are you asking? Mr. Gill or me?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

There are two new ridings that are going to be implemented in Brampton.