Evidence of meeting #68 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was quality.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sylvain Lévesque  President, Quebec's Private Daycare Association
Susan Elson  Executive Director, Davar Child Care Society
Kathy Graham  Chief Executive Officer, Association of Day Care Operators of Ontario
Kerry McCuaig  Researcher, Better Child Care Education, Alberta Child Care Association

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, November 22, the committee will now commence its study of Bill C-303.

I want to ask the committee, if they would indulge me, just quickly to have a look at the sixth report of the subcommittee on agenda and procedure, which is in your package. Let's have a quick look at it, and if there are no issues with it, perhaps we could quickly adopt it. If there is going to be a lot of major discussion, then by all means we will have to deal with it after.

These are the recommendations for what we're doing. It's the updated calendar for what we're going to be looking at over the next few weeks and going into June.

If everyone has had a chance to look at it and no one has any concerns, then I would ask whether we're able to adopt it at this time.

Mr. Savage, go ahead.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

I just see one day of witnesses on Bill C-284. Is that correct?

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

That's correct.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Is that what the committee had agreed on?

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

That is correct at this point in time. If there needs to be further discussion, we can—

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Let's do that.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Okay. We can definitely do that.

We can adopt this the way it is right now, and we'll just make sure, Mr. Savage, that we have a chance to talk about that afterwards.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

I want to leave open the possibility of hearing more than one day of witnesses.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Okay.

Is there any other discussion on the sixth report?

Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the sixth report of the steering committee?

3:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

All right. The sixth report has been adopted. Thank you very much.

Can we get you to have a look at the Centennial Flame? We will not discuss it right now; we can have a look at it after. It is that time of year again when we talk about the Centennial Flame Research Award, but I don't want to cut into Ms. Savoie's time. We're going to let you get started now. We can have a look at the Centennial Flame Research Award later.

Denise, thanks for being here today. You have some time to present.

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I know there's a tradition in this committee of asking witnesses what their salary is, so I just want to put it out there right now that I'm all for transparency about MPs' salaries.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Are you at $145,000 or $150,000?

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC

I don't even know.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. This afternoon I want to make clear what this bill intends and what it would do. I would like to also allay the concerns, where I can, of those who have voiced opposition, by addressing first misunderstanding or misinformation about the bill's intent and impacts, and by presenting from the outset two amendments to the bill that we will put forward to address some of those concerns.

The bill was designed with positive intentions, not to weaken but to enhance current provincial and territorial early learning and child care systems; not to curtail but to expand the current range of choices available to Canadian parents and children.

I'm going to start with the premise that we agree on certain things. The first premise is that we all agree that good parenting and early learning opportunities are crucial for the future development of children. And I think we all agree that parents are responsible to help their children grow and thrive. And I think we also all want to offer the best and the widest range of choices to those parents, so that they in turn can offer the best head start for their child.

The question, Mr. Chairman, is how do we achieve this? The answer is, by doing better than we now do in Canada. According to this year's report by the Council for Early Child Development prepared by Dr. Fraser Mustard, the cost of early childhood behavioural and mental problems is estimated at over $30 billion. Costs could be reduced by 50% if a more comprehensive learning and child care system were in place.

According to this report, Canada ranks dead last, or 30th out of the 30 OECD member countries, including most European countries, Australia, New Zealand and the United States, in the area of early childhood education. We spend one quarter of 1 % of our GDP on early childhood education, that is less than the United States and a fraction of what developed countries spend, or 2% overall. The report qualifies Canada's early childhood education program as a “chaotic mess”. This bill aims to correct this situation.

The aim of Bill C-330 is to make public day care services the cornerstone of Canada's social policy. If enacted by Parliament, this Bill would provide adequate and stable federal funding to guarantee universal access to learning and early childhood services, thereby giving all Canadian families more choice in these matters.

I've met parents in Victoria who were told that they must wait seven to eight months before they could get their name added to a wait list. Some parents start seeking out wait lists as soon as they know they're expecting.

One parent said to me, “If I got a space in June,”--and this was quite a few months ago--“I'd pay two months of child care just to keep the space for my son, and that's a lot of money for me.”

Another person said, “We're moving up on some of the wait lists, but the closest we've come is number 12. It's just not an option for one of us to stay home.”

This bill is for countless parents who find themselves in similar circumstances.

I would like to state what this bill would not do, in contrast to some misunderstandings and misinformation that you may have heard.

The bill would not interfere with a parent's right to choose what is best for his or her child. It would not pass judgment and would not limit the child care options available to parents. Rather, it would give parents more choices in terms of providing their young children with the best possible learning opportunities. This new quality option would be readily accessible and affordable and in keeping with the latest scientific data and cutting edge practices in the field of early childhood education.

Furthermore, the bill would not infringe in any way whatsoever on provincial and territorial jurisdictions with respect to child care service delivery. It would not pass judgment on or restrict the excellent programs provided by certain provinces and territories. Rather, under the bill, provinces and territories would receive funding to expand and improve upon the child care and early childhood education services offered to parents and their children. In other words, this is enabling, not restrictive, legislation.

After we introduced this bill, we went out to collect input from a broad range of sources. Or we did this again, because we had already done so before introducing it. But in this case we sought input from provinces and included elected officials, parents, ordinary working people, community groups, and so on. We've tried to allay some of their concerns. Further to that endeavour, I can confirm that we will bring forward two amendments to this bill.

The first amendment would recognize regulated or licensed family child care providers, as determined by the province or territory.

Secondly, I acknowledge and respect the role that the aboriginal head start program and other aboriginal-specific programs play in Canada's child care infrastructure and recognize that it needs to be recognized in the act. I look forward to the testimony of the Association of Friendship Centres, who will guide us in this regard.

I'd like to speak to one final concern I have heard, which I believe requires clarification. I've been asked, “What about parents who don't want public child care?” My answer is that I respect the choice of parents to stay at home. In fact, I believe that these early years are unique and precious times for parents. But sadly, it's not a realistic choice for so many. I presented this bill to ensure that those parents who need it have the option of choosing affordable, high-quality, public child care, so that they can be assured their child will get the best possible start.

For those parents who do stay at home to care for their children, my bill does not cancel the Conservatives' $100 monthly payout. Let me be very clear: you do not have to take part in a new early learning and child care system, but such a system will provide new, affordable spaces as options for those parents who need them.

We've heard from countless parents who have no choice. This bill gives choice to these parents without removing choice from many others. In fact, it gives more choice to all parents who choose quality early learning and child care.

I'd like to end on a personal story that I think is relevant. My daughter is a talented educator of young children, and she herself has a three-year-old. She's decided, and they've made that very difficult choice, that they will make some sacrifices—but still, they can do it—and she stays at home with their children. Her three-year-old speaks to me in French—he's learning French—he skis; he's learning the violin. He's really exposed to a very enriched and stimulating environment.

But recently, when I visited her, I met a young four-year-old who lives a few streets down, and he is not so fortunate. His parents don't have that option; it's absolutely not a possibility. He's left with a babysitter. During a good part of his day, he watches TV. As I was watching him, it was apparent that he already has difficulty learning, and those problems are going to stay with him.

My daughter, who's an educator, said that with early intervention, the learning difficulties he has don't have to be his future. I thought this was important to relay to the committee, because it seems to me that clearly we can pay now or we can pay later. But with children like this one and the many others who do not have the opportunity of a stimulating, enriched learning environment, or who, sadly, in some cases do not have attentive caregivers and are not attended to, we will be feeling the consequences in our society collectively.

The Early Learning and Child Care Act is an investment in our future to give all children a head start: they're our future.

Thank you. I'd be pleased to answer your questions.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Madame Savoie.

What I'm going to do, because we don't have a lot of time today—we have two groups—is ask that the first round be five minutes so that we can try to get in as many rounds as we can. We'll leave all rounds today at five minutes. I'm going to start with the Liberals.

Ms. Dhalla, you have five minutes, please.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Dhalla Liberal Brampton—Springdale, ON

Thank you very much.

Denise, I think your presentation was most informative on an issue that is important to so many Canadians across this country. I can tell you, as the critic for social development and one who is responsible for early learning and child care in terms of the portfolio, we've had a chance to hear from so many advocacy groups across this country and so many Canadian parents and families of the struggle they are facing to have their children in a high-quality program while they are working. I think you perhaps said it best when you said that there are families, both mothers and fathers, who have the opportunity and who choose to stay home with their children, but there are many parents across this country, many single mothers in particular, who do not have a choice and who do not have an option.

In town hall meetings and meetings with some of these advocacy groups and organizations, the one story that we repeatedly hear is that the wait list is years and years. By the time their turn comes up to be able to have the opportunity to enter into a day care, many of these women have had the unfortunate choice of having to stay home and having to struggle to make ends meet, or by the time their wait list number comes up and they have the opportunity to enter day care, these children are then eligible to go to nursery or kindergarten.

In your report you also highlighted the fact that Dr. Fraser Mustard, one of the leading experts in this country, along with many other experts, has highlighted the importance of investing in early learning and child care. I think it was under that premise and the desire of so many Canadian parents and families that the provincial and federal government in 2005 put into place the early learning and child care agreement in cooperation and conjunction with the provinces and territories. There was an investment of over $5 billion over five years to ensure that we would have the creation of child care spaces in this country.

From a realistic perspective there are many individuals around this table and perhaps in this room who have worked for many years on this particular issue. It was with their desire, hard work, and efforts that this early learning agreement was put into place. It wasn't without its share of challenges, but I think it was a significant achievement and a significant milestone for so many people in this country.

In talking to individuals now, there has been a tremendous sense of frustration amongst these parents, families, and advocacy organizations that the agreement was rescinded and instead the $1,200 per year was put into place. As many parents have experienced first hand, this taxable $100 a month has left parents in an unfortunate position because so many of them realize there are no spaces available. You could be paying an individual $5,000 a month or a $1 million a month, as I put it, and if there are no spaces for their children to be able to attend day care, then at the end of the day that money, in many instances to ensure a quality educational day care space, really becomes meaningless to them.

The other challenge that many individuals have found is that when there are spaces available, they don't know how $2 a day is actually going to ensure they receive quality day care.

Perhaps you can elaborate for us from what you have heard how this bill would ensure that parents and families across this country would have access to quality, universal, accessible day care spaces to ensure we do invest in the future and in our children who are going to be the leaders of our nation.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

You'll have to do that all in less than a minute.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC

I can do it.

You're quite right, this bill is based on these four principles of quality, accessibility, universality, and accountability. You're quite right that right now there is money being transferred to the provinces. I believe that it's going to go down to $250 million in 2007-08, but with no accountability measures. The previous Liberal agreements were based on those criteria. Unfortunately, they weren't set in a legal framework or an act, so they could be reversed at the stroke of a pen. That's what we're hoping to correct, to ensure that parents and children are in a situation where they have these opportunities.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Ms. Dhalla, and thank you, Madame Savoie.

We're going to now move to Mr. Lessard from the Bloc, for five minutes please.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to welcome our colleague Ms. Savoie and congratulate her on the quality of this legislative initiative. But I think that first and foremost, I have to say that there is a great need for this bill.

In Quebec, we have a daycare program in place. Of course, it can always be improved upon, but it has already produced some amazing results in so far as improving the quality of life, particularly for women. It has given our children a leg up on life and school.

It is my understanding that Quebec is excluded from the bill and that provincial and territorial jurisdiction is maintained. And yet, you're calling for the appointment of an advisory council to examine this area and prepare a report.

Why do you feel it would be useful to appoint an advisory council, given that the provinces and territories have jurisdiction over these areas?

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC

Thank you for the question. We did in fact look to the Quebec model for inspiration when we drafted this bill. This model had a major influence on us because it meets all of the criteria and provides quality learning opportunities for children. You are also quite correct in stating that the provinces are responsible for administering these programs. The bill would not interfere with this process at all.

One of the reasons why we are in favour of appointing a council is, quite simply, to ensure transparency in the funding transfer process, something that we don't have right now in Canada. For example, my province receives approximately $121 million and there is no way of knowing if the funds really are spent on early learning and child care programs. I do believe that some measure of accountability is warranted. If taxpayer dollars are transferred to the provinces, an explanation should be given as to how this money is used.

Quebec was excluded because of its cultural distinctiveness.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Regarding provincial jurisdiction, we also need to understand that the kind of oversight the federal government would retain would give it some authority to ensure that families...Your focus is more specifically on low-income families and on giving them access to services of this nature. However, it is often difficult to reach children with a disability. In so far as provincial and federal jurisdictions are concerned, I'd like to see what steps could be taken to reach this target group.

It's not really what we would like to see. We would like to see the provinces and territories do the job that they are supposed to do. We just want to understand the dynamic interplay you're trying to achieve through your bill.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC

As I've already explained—and I think you're aware of this—Quebec is exempted and can opt to receive these funds or to be fully exempt. If I understood your question correctly, I think the whole idea was to ensure that the provinces meet the standards of universality, accountability and accessibility, as defined in the act. Access under the program would be guaranteed for all children, including those who may have problems or a disability.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you very much, Monsieur Lessard and Madame Savoie.

We're now going to move to the NDP, for five minutes, Ms. Chow.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

My question would be fairly easy.

In the last two years, in 2005-06 and then 2006-07, I believe the federal government during the Liberals' time in 2005-06 transferred $925 million to the provinces, $225 million from the multilateral framework agreement, and $700 million through the bilateral agreements.

Would you know, or does anyone know, how many child care spaces have been created in Canada out of this $925 million in 2005? In 2006 there was also $950 million. Do we know how many child care spaces were created, whether they are high quality or not, whether they are accessible or affordable? Would you know any of that information at this point?