Evidence of meeting #43 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was employees.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:45 a.m.
Fly Past 60 Coalition, As an Individual
They have what they call an association.
11:45 a.m.
Fly Past 60 Coalition, As an Individual
Well, Air Canada's Pilots Association call themselves an association. In fact, they sometimes take umbrage at being called a union. But it's an association of a group of pilots that band together to represent themselves. WestJet and the Air Canada Jazz pilots have a union, and they approached the company wanting their older pilots to be allowed the option of flying.
11:45 a.m.
NDP
Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON
I hear from young people in my constituency who are trying to get into the workplace that there are a lot of people at the top end who could retire with decent pensions who won't retire. We also have the situation where people retire and then are hired back on, on contract, which at the end of the day sometimes costs the company more anyway. The young people, and their parents, who want them to get into the workplace, are very concerned.
In many senses, because of technological advances, the workplace is shrinking in terms of employment opportunities, particularly good employment opportunities. Certainly, in the airline pilot sector, it's good work. We have a pilot training program in Sault Ste. Marie, at Sault College, and all of those young people are looking for jobs. What do you have to say to them?
11:45 a.m.
Fly Past 60 Coalition, As an Individual
First, I'd like to say that Sault College has indeed an excellent program. My youngest daughter is planning on attending the pilot course next year. My oldest son is also a pilot. He's flying for Cathay Pacific in Hong Kong. There are tremendous opportunities throughout the world. There is a major shortage looming, with the number of aircraft on order and the number of pilots in the pipeline.
Having said that, the main impetus for the upward movement of younger pilots is not older pilots retiring; it's the airline being healthy and expanding. To that aim, it makes little sense to squeeze out experienced pilots who could mentor these younger pilots. There is also, of course, this question: why discriminate against one age group for the benefit of the other? Surely, it should be a balance.
I know in my earlier years it was at least 13 years before a pilot could possibly hold a captain's position with Air Canada. We have pilots with Air Canada now who were direct-entry captains, on the smaller aircraft, albeit. So times do change.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen
Thank you very much. That's your seven minutes.
We'll go to Mr. Komarnicki, please.
February 10th, 2011 / 11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Certainly, I'm sympathetic to a lot of what you say, and generally have been supportive of the intention of the bill, but there are a certain number of unintended consequences. Remarkably, Mr. Martin raised a few of them. One of them is that there are fiercely fought collective bargaining agreements and contracts in place. Air Canada pilots are quite different from, say, Jazz or WestJet and other pilots because of that structure. You can't compare the two because it's like comparing apples and oranges.
Part of the consideration that I'm going to embark upon was actually raised by Mr. Kesselman, and that's things like pension benefits, health insurance, disability coverage, and life insurance--which, of course, exponentially increases in cost to those within the collective bargaining agreement and others as you extend the age of retirement. I'll start from this proposition. It would be fair to say, specifically with Air Canada, that your salary range increases exponentially based on age, and probably maxes out, as I understand it, at about age 55 to age 60, which is the top of the salary line. Would you agree with that?
Secondly, the salaries are based on how big a bird you fly. You were mentioning the 777. Would one who hits the age of 55 to 60 and is flying a 777 be at the peak of their salary range?
11:50 a.m.
Fly Past 60 Coalition, As an Individual
They would indeed be at the peak of their salary range. However, age is not a direct correlation to seniority. The seniority dictates which aircraft you fly, not the age.
Many pilots are being hired these days in their forties--
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
Let me just close this a little further. The pensions you get, roughly, are about $120,000 a year, if you max it out.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
Now, the big issue would be that the drag on employee benefits, on the cost of employee benefits, on the cost of pensions, would be negatively affected if we were to extend the mandatory retirement age past 60, for some of the reasons that I've outlined. Would you agree with me on that?
11:50 a.m.
Fly Past 60 Coalition, As an Individual
Actually, no. The maximum pension level for Air Canada pilots is when they reach 35 years of service. If they were hired at 19 or 20 years of age, that would happen long before their mandatory retirement age. They would no longer be contributing to the plan and their pension payments would not be any larger if they stayed any longer.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
So are you saying that by extending the mandatory retirement age past 60 to whatever it might be, it would not negatively impact the cost of benefits, the cost of programs, as mentioned—
11:50 a.m.
Fly Past 60 Coalition, As an Individual
Obviously, some programs, yes—the health programs, insurance programs—but for pension programs, it would probably save it money. You'd be contributing to the pension plan rather than drawing from it, and, obviously, when you do finally retire, you're not going to be around as long as you would have been before.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
Let me ask you this. Some of the provinces have specifically included a provision with respect to eliminating mandatory retirement that recognizes that employers are permitted to differentiate between employees on the basis of age with respect to employee pension benefits—and we'll argue about that—in other insurance plans, and this is something Mr. Kesselman referred to. Are you agreeable to age discrimination at least for that purpose?
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen
I think Mr. Kesselman did want to have a chance to respond, so....
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
In time, but I'm presently speaking to Mr. Kelly.
11:50 a.m.
Fly Past 60 Coalition, As an Individual
Right. I would basically say that Professor Kesselman obviously has the information on this.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
No, but are you, as a group, and you individually, agreeable to that limited age discrimination for that specific purpose? It has a direct impact on collective bargaining agreements and the cost for those who are behind you.
11:50 a.m.
Fly Past 60 Coalition, As an Individual
I don't believe it has an impact on it.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
11:50 a.m.
Fly Past 60 Coalition, As an Individual
We're not looking at age here; we're looking at seniority. Some pilots are hired at 40; some pilots are hired at 20. Obviously, they're going to reach maximum pensionable ages long before their retirement age.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
This might be a good place for Mr. Kesselman to make a comment, but I have another question I want to ask on age that Mr. Martin touched upon.
Mr. Kesselman, could you briefly give your comment? I'd like to move onto another area.
11:50 a.m.
Prof. Jonathan Kesselman
I was hired by the Fly Past 60 Coalition to undertake analysis and provide expert witness testimony in some of their previous proceedings, and the area of pensions is very interesting. Actually, by and large, Air Canada saves money by allowing pilots who wish to, to work beyond 60. It's a defined benefit plan. For a pilot who has maxed out, or even approached the maxing out of the pension, by working an extra year, what happens? They're going to be drawing that pension one year less. Or by working an extra five years, they'll be drawing it five years less. Each of us has an unknown date of death, but it's not affected by any of these issues. So the company actually—
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
What about the areas of life insurance, health insurance, and disability insurance?