Evidence of meeting #54 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mrs. Isabelle Dumas
Jean-François Roussy  Director, Self Employed and Other Initiatives, Employment Insurance Policy, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

9 a.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

I understand very well what you say and you have shown me something else. There are provincial programs that vary from one province to the next. So, not everyone will have access to the same resources everywhere. There are certainly some provinces where people would not have as many resources as if they were in another province.

For instance, a 23-year-old trisomic who falls ill will have the same fears as someone younger and will need his parents. We know that some people older than 18 have the same emotional constraints as younger people. That is why we would like to extend the scope of the Bill to all those who might need this kind of support.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Go ahead, Mr. Sullivan.

9 a.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Yes, indeed, the United Nations definition of a child is 18, and we weren't talking about the difference between critically ill and disabled in our discussions. We understand the difference. What we were suggesting is—as is already the case in the Canada Pension Plan, for example—that the definition of a child extends beyond 18. In the Canada Pension Plan it extends to age 25 if that child is completely dependent upon the parents and is in post-secondary education.

We heard from a lot of witnesses, many witnesses, who suggested to this committee that an arbitrary cut-off at 18 potentially disenfranchised a considerable number of individuals who are in the same boat, such as persons who may be caring for a disabled person who happens to be 19.

I understand, Mr. McColeman, that there are other government supports, but we're not talking about government supports; we're talking about when that child becomes critically ill. We understand that the definition means something very substantial, something much greater than merely the child that we're looking after because that child is disabled.

In circumstances in which the child becomes critically ill, as Ms. Leitch has suggested, we are suggesting that the government could, through regulation, make allowances for exceptional circumstances, thus answering many of the criticisms that were levied by many of the witnesses who came here to suggest that an arbitrary decision at age 18 would leave too many people off that ought to be on.

I'm not suggesting that there aren't provincial programs, etc., that help in normal times, but we're talking about abnormal times when someone becomes critically ill. That is why we're suggesting that the government could, in fact, if it so chose, deal with regulations to cover some of the issues that were raised by many of the witnesses here.

Thank you.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Thank you, Mr. Sullivan.

We'll move to Monsieur Lapointe.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

François Lapointe NDP Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Without denying the significance of Mr. Coleman's comments, I believe we have to look closely at what we are dealing with. Many of the witnesses we have heard were members of parents' associations. They all told us that the tragedy they were facing would not have been any less terrible if their child had been 17, 18, 19 or 20 years of age, especially if he or she was still dependent on his or her family.

Section 206.4(2) proposed at clause 5 of the Bill states that "every employee who has completed six consecutive months of continuous employment with an employer and who is the parent of a critically ill child…" Obviously, this refers to the parental relationship. If ever--God may help me--, my daughter were to become critically ill at 17 years of age and suddenly became eligible for Quebec social assistance at 18 years of age, because she would then be considered an adult, that would not change anything to my own situation as her parent. That would not change the terrible future I would have to have to contemplate, as many witnesses have told us. Some had to leave their job and had trouble covering their daily expenses.

Of course, the provincial support would be helpful but it would not be sufficient to cover everything and I would find it very difficult to believe that we would not want to help. I do not say that your observation is wrong but I do not believe that it would allow us to wash their hands of the situation, considering the position of all those parents who told us that their life would have been terribly shattered even if their child had been 19 or 20 years old.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Thank you, Monsieur Lapointe.

Mr. McColeman is next.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON

Because we are on the record, I just want to be very clear. Mr. Sullivan said that witnesses came here and levied “criticisms”. I think that's a pretty poor word to characterize what we heard. What we heard, in my opinion, were witnesses who were very thankful that our government was bringing forward this bill in a compassionate and caring way for families in need.

I think what they did in addition to that was say that there are some potential areas for improvement to the bill. I do not believe there were criticisms of this bill. I believe they were objective observations made from their personal experiences and their associations. I think the word “criticism” is absolutely foreign to what we heard as testimony and I want to put that on the record.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Go ahead, Monsieur Lapointe.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

François Lapointe NDP Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

I can understand Mr. Coleman's reaction but I want to remind everyone that we all said, on the very first day we started this study, that we would support the Bill. So, I would not want us to be led astray. We have the duty to support the Bill, but we also have the duty to underline the parts of the Bill that had been challenged by the witnesses.

What we heard was so touching and fundamental in the life of those families. And I want to make something absolutely clear to everyone: our approach has been totally open right from the start. So, I do not believe that my friend has changed his position because he has used the word "criticism". That is absolutely not the case. I have the duty to tell those things. When I speak, I do not speak on behalf of François Lapointe, I speak on behalf of all those parents who said that they did not understand why the limit would have to be set at 18 years of age. That is why we are moving that amendment and why we hope the government will support it.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Go ahead, Mr. Cleary.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

One particular witness who appeared before the committee was a nurse. She had a 16-year-old daughter who had cancer. I asked the witness for more details on what she had been dealing with.

Her daughter was 16. She had cancer. The mother was a nurse. She left work in May and she is still caring for her daughter. I asked this lady whether or not she would feel any differently in terms of the support she had given her daughter if her daughter were 19 as opposed to 16. She turned it back on me and asked, “Are you a parent? How would you feel?” I said, “I am a parent. I have two children.” I asked her specifically because I wanted her answer, and she said that it wouldn't matter if her daughter was 19 or 29 or 39. I want to make that point.

I also want to bring this back to a point that Ms. Leitch made. She talked about how a disabled child is different from a critically ill child. While Ms. Leitch was speaking, all I was thinking about was how one can have a disabled child who is still critically ill.

The point has been made here this morning that there has to be leeway in the legislation for exceptional circumstances. That's the point we need to hammer home.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

There's certainly been some excellent discussion back and forth on this particular amendment and the effect of it.

Now I'll put the amendment to a vote.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Could it be a recorded vote?

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

We'll get there. We've got lots of time. Everybody relax.

Those who are in favour will vote accordingly, and those who are opposed will vote that way.

We'll have a recorded vote.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Is this vote on the amendment?

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

This is on the NDP amendment, yes.

(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 5 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

The amendment does not carry.

We'll then move on to the next amendment, which would be the Liberal amendment 1—

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Don't we have to adopt the clause?

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

There are a number of amendments with this clause, so we'll go through all the amendments and then we'll adopt the clause.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

I'm sorry for interrupting.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

That's all right. You're keeping me on my toes, because we want to be sure that we don't miss a clause.

We'll go to Liberal amendment 1. It is in relation to proposed section 206.4.

We'll let Mr. Cuzner move that amendment, and then we'll deal with the amendment in terms of whether it's in order.

Go ahead.

November 1st, 2012 / 9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

I move the amendment. It's just upping it to 52 weeks in order to care for or support the child. That would be the change of the line.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

All right. So in dealing with a critically ill child, it's moving it up from 37 weeks to 52 weeks.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Yes.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

I have a ruling with respect to that amendment. Clause 5 of Bill C-44 states that leave related to this part is of a maximum of 37 weeks. The amendment proposes that this leave be extended to 52 weeks. As House of Commons Procedure and Practice, second edition, states on page 766:

An amendment to a bill that was referred to a committee after second reading...is out of order if it is beyond the scope and principle of the bill.

In the opinion of the chair, and pursuant to advice, the introduction of the LIB-1 amendment represents an extension of leave included in clause 5 of the bill, which is beyond the scope of the bill and is therefore inadmissible. I might mention also that LIB-3 is correlated to LIB-1, and this ruling will apply to the LIB-3 amendment as well.

Now we'll go to NDP-2. It relates to page 4 of the bill, clause 5. Amendment NDP-2 essentially talks about the end dates. I'll let the NDP move that motion.

Go ahead, Mr. Lapointe.

9:15 a.m.

NDP

François Lapointe NDP Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

We would like to amend section 206.4(4)b)(i) of the Act by replacing "(i) the child dies" by "(i) the expiry of two weeks after the date on which the child dies".

As those two amendments are directly related, may I move the other one also?

No? All right.