Evidence of meeting #12 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was union.

A recording is available from Parliament.

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Elizabeth MacPherson  Chairperson, Canada Industrial Relations Board
Dick Heinen  Executive Director, Christian Labour Association of Canada
Satinder Chera  Vice-President, Communications, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Marcel Boyer  Emeritus Professor of Economics, Université de Montréal, Fellow, Centre for Interuniversity Research and Analysis on Organizations (CIRANO), As an Individual

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Devinder Shory Conservative Calgary Northeast, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, witnesses, for the presentations you made this morning.

I have to confess something, Mr. Chair. I did not know that unions do not allow secret ballots. When I found out, I shook my head. I imagined if I went to seek a vote on a doorstep and asked my constituent if she would vote for me and vote for me in my presence, there would be an outcry. I believe the system was flawed to that extent. On the other hand I heard some comments on 50% plus one, which makes sense, to cast a vote for me.

I want to find out from you to start with—each of you can make a quick comment—if you have had any feedback from your membership since this bill was tabled? Mr. Chera just mentioned it.

9:30 a.m.

Executive Director, Christian Labour Association of Canada

Dick Heinen

If I may speak to that, this bill is very concerning for us, primarily because of the 50% plus one of an entire unit where people may or may not be present. It's an unfair system.

We are in favour of secret ballot votes where possible. I think it makes good sense. Everyone is entitled to their democratic right of voting. However, there are significant issues in remote locations that I don't think this bill addresses. Our experience with the CIRB has been very fair. They have treated card-based certification very fairly. You have to be very careful. You have to be right and you have to make sure the cards are properly done. But we've been treated very fairly on the card-based certification. It has worked, and I don't know what the problem is. I don't know why we need to change that.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Devinder Shory Conservative Calgary Northeast, AB

Thank you, Mr. Heinen. I have very limited time. I want to hear from others as well.

9:30 a.m.

Chairperson, Canada Industrial Relations Board

Elizabeth MacPherson

We heard the same concerns from our constituency, labour and management, that this committee heard on Tuesday. So we've heard the same thing you have.

Currently the board uses secret ballot votes when it's appropriate. We use our discretion to do it when we need to.

One other thing I should point out in the bill that's of concern to us is the amendment to paragraph 28(c). Currently the board decides support for a union either on the date of the application or such other date as the board deems appropriate. A good of example of this would be in the many seasonal industries within our jurisdiction, for example, shipping on the Great Lakes. If we lose the discretion to decide the date on which to test support, we could have perverse results where someone makes the application on a date when there are very few people in the workplace, and that decision will bind even though once the season starts again and people come back, they may feel differently.

So we would like to have our discretion back, please.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Devinder Shory Conservative Calgary Northeast, AB

Thank you.

Maybe I should ask you another question instead of hearing from Mr. Boyer and Mr. Chera. If I have time, you can make a comment in a minute, but I want to ask Ms. MacPherson something.

How do you currently conduct certification and decertification votes? More specifically, what are the current methods of conducting the votes—email, mail-in, electronic, in person—and what percentage of each of those is successful?

9:30 a.m.

Chairperson, Canada Industrial Relations Board

Elizabeth MacPherson

We have the three types that you mentioned, the in-person, the mail ballot, and the electronic vote. On page 5 of our paper we've given you the statistics for the last four and three-quarter years.

In person tends to be our default, unless there's a reason to go to a mail ballot or an electronic vote. The electronic votes, as I mentioned earlier, are quite expensive, although they do ensure a better participation rate and there aren't spoiled ballots. You can't spoil a ballot under the electronic system.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Devinder Shory Conservative Calgary Northeast, AB

Mr. Boyer and Mr. Chera, can you make quick comments on the feedback, if you have received any, on this bill?

9:30 a.m.

Emeritus Professor of Economics, Université de Montréal, Fellow, Centre for Interuniversity Research and Analysis on Organizations (CIRANO), As an Individual

Marcel Boyer

I don't really have an opinion on this, sorry.

9:30 a.m.

Vice-President, Communications, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Satinder Chera

Our feedback is based on the slide presentation that we provided to the committee today. We have surveyed our members on this issue in the past, and there is a high level of support. I would also add that it's not just our members. In terms of Canadians in general, those who have been unionized or are unionized, there doesn't seem to be any disagreement among any of those segments that there should be a secret ballot vote in place.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you very much for those answers.

We move on to the NDP, Monsieur Boulerice, for five minutes

9:30 a.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses for joining us for this important study.

I come from a union background myself. I was a consultant at the Canadian Union of Public Employees before being elected to the House. Before that, I was a journalist at TVA and sat on the executive board of my union, the Telecommunications Workers Union, which operates under federal legislation.

For me, joining a union by signing a card is the easiest and most effective way for workers to become organized. That is confirmed by most academic studies. It is effective because it can be done discreetly. There is no election campaign. The employer does not automatically have the means to threaten or intimidate workers who want to organize themselves in order to improve their working conditions.

When secret ballots were imposed in British Columbia and Ontario, the number of attempts at unionization went down. When there were attempts, the success rate dropped.

Ms. MacPherson, the figures you gave us earlier were eloquent, not to say astonishing. They show that the system of signing a card works relatively well. Sometimes it causes a vote, but not automatically.

There is an old expression that says:

If it's not broken, don't fix it.

My impression is that the current system is working rather well. Am I wrong to say that we do not need to fix a situation where the strengths of the employers and the union are adequately balanced?

9:35 a.m.

Chairperson, Canada Industrial Relations Board

Elizabeth MacPherson

Are you asking me to answer that?

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Yes.

Is the current system working well?

9:35 a.m.

Chairperson, Canada Industrial Relations Board

Elizabeth MacPherson

In our opinion, it is working well. With the board having the discretion to decide when a vote must be held, it works.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

In your view, when a vote is held, should only the ballots in the box be counted or should we also count the people who stayed at home and expressed no opinion?

9:35 a.m.

Chairperson, Canada Industrial Relations Board

Elizabeth MacPherson

As I have already indicated, a system such as the one in the bill can lead to problematic situations.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

You are talking about the current bill. Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I am going to turn over the two minutes I have left to Mr. Marston.

February 13th, 2014 / 9:35 a.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and to my friend for passing this on to me.

I'm very interested, Ms. MacPherson, in the materials that you've given us because, as Mr. Cuzner has indicated, the mover of this bill has talked about the mountain of people or however we want to describe it, Mr. Chair, the huge number of people making demands for decertification and very clearly when you're under 50 that's not a very big mountain no matter how you look at it.

The concern I have here is.... What we're hearing from the testimony from a number of different people is that we have one of the best systems. We have a very democratic system in place now. You yourself have spoken of risks, some perversions included in this bill. Don't tempt me because I could go even further with statements on that.

But I'm concerned that this bill has the potential of putting at risk 70 years of balanced labour relations in this country. I raised it before that that will have an impact on capital investment in Canada. I'm not so sure people have considered that. What is your view on that?

9:35 a.m.

Chairperson, Canada Industrial Relations Board

Elizabeth MacPherson

I believe the committee heard on Tuesday from both labour and management. I think those are the views that the committee should take into consideration.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Again, the tripartite system that we've had has worked. It's not often I agree with CLAC. I'll be blunt with you. I come out of a different union and we've had our differences, but it's good to see that we can come together. That's the reality of the situation, in times and places when realistic people sit down with the problem we find answers, but this is a fix for a problem that doesn't exist and it's very concerning.

Mr. Shory, I want to add something. You were saying unions don't allow votes. I don't—

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Mr. Marston, just quickly, through the chair, please, not directly.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

My apologies. I was trying to inform my friend.

We hold elections for officers. We hold referendums. We hold constitutional change, all by secret ballot, and collective bargaining offers from our employers are all secret ballot. So there is a great deal of support for a secret ballot method we agree, but this is very democratic.

How is my time? I must be getting close.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

You are almost at an end, sir, about seven seconds.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Actually you're finished now.

Thank you very much.

We'll go on to Mr. Butt for five minutes from the Conservative Party.