Evidence of meeting #20 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was study.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul Thompson  Assistant Deputy Minister, Processing and Payment Services Branch, Service Canada
Frank Vermaeten  Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Ian Shugart  Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Yes. I would say that in the broader skills agenda which we're addressing one of the objectives is to remove barriers to labour mobility. We don't want to tell people they should move from A to B in the country, but as a general rule, we don't want to discourage people from moving to where there are good jobs available to them. That's why Minister Moore is working with the provinces to remove the existing exemptions under the labour mobility provisions in chapter 7 of the Agreement on Internal Trade. It's why my department is working on apprenticeship harmonization, for example, with the provinces.

Of course we have, generally speaking, labour mobility in the Red Seal trades, 55 trades which have reciprocal standards across the country, but we don't for the training years that lead up to a Red Seal certificate. We're trying to get greater mobility for people during the training period. In this area, training requests are generally not approved currently if the job is in another jurisdiction, which limits labour mobility. One of the things we may want to do is put mechanisms in place to ensure training is linked to a job offer and that it's prioritized regardless of where the job is.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Perhaps if someone is willing to make a move, that might be a recommendation once we have some input from witnesses.

Do we have any sense to what degree private industry is already coming to the table? I look at the mining industry, companies like Seaspan. Is there any data on that particular issue in terms of to what degree we already have participation of companies in this particular area?

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Frank.

10:10 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Frank Vermaeten

Well, I think that primary involvement is up front in priority setting. What we find is about a little less than half of the provinces and territories have a system, a mechanism whereby they engage employers up front, figure out where the best place is to spend money. That's a real best practice that as part of this employer involvement we want to have a lot more of it, so that the employer is involved in figuring out what type of training is needed, for how many people, and when. It is about that training for real jobs.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you for that answer.

Mr. Cuzner.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Mr. Chair, I'm going to try to get three questions in if I can. I want to sort of come off from what Mrs. McLeod was asking.

One of the recurring problems we've heard over the course of our studies here with the committee has been the challenge of recognizing apprenticeship credentials province to province. What carrot and what stick can be included in the LMDAs to help expedite or rationalize this, or whatever? I would suggest that recognition of foreign credentials is important, but when we can't get an apprentice in New Brunswick qualifying to take a training opportunity in Saskatchewan, where are the carrots and sticks within the LMDA discussions?

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

That's a good question. I have to say that I recently announced, I think, a $4 million grant with the four Atlantic governments that they're contributing toward apprenticeship harmonization of the Atlantic provinces. Alberta, B.C., and Saskatchewan have the new west partnership. Those seven provinces are working very closely on apprenticeship harmonization to allow for that mobility which you're talking about so there are some good active performers.

I would say that two central Canadian provinces are not so progressive. All I can tell you is that I'm calling them out publicly on that and saying that they need to be part of the program to harmonize apprenticeship. I don't think we can lean on provinces through the LMDA funds to do that, though.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

You don't think that opportunity is there?

10:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Frank Vermaeten

Well, I think we could talk about national priorities, but I think it is important to distinguish between the harmonization of the system so that people can move while they're on training versus what has been achieved with chapter 7 that was agreed to by all provinces and territories several years ago. Now, once the apprentice has the ticket, there is full mobility once the ticket is achieved. It's in that process that it's very much different across provinces and territories. I think that's what the minister has been pushing to try to move that, and we've been providing the funding for the provinces and territories to move in that direction.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

If I can get my second one in here—

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

I'm open to this. I think the federal government has an essential role to ensure the economic union, and if the 28 member states of the European Union can get this right, we should be able to with the 13 jurisdictions in Canada. Mr. Cuzner, if you have ideas about how we can make some of this conditional on progress, on mobility, I'm all ears for that.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

On literacy, you mentioned that no longer are we into core funding the advocacy, that there's a better way to do this. The Canadian Literacy and Learning Network identified that 50% of Canadian workers are functioning at a minimum literacy level, and in order to be more productive for themselves and their employer, this has to be attributed.... We've seen a decrease in the funds going to literacy development, from $35 million in 2006, and in 2011 it was capped at $21 million. It's a fairly significant decrease. Where are we with literacy development? Where do you see us?

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

It's important to point out that the funds we've spent in these grants and contributions in the area of literacy aren't actually going directly to teaching people to read and write. They're going to administering organizations, overhead, research, and policy work. All of that's fine, but as a general rule, the Government of Canada, including prior to 2006, has been moving away from core funding for organizations to actual delivery. That's where we're trying to move in terms of literacy.

I would say this. We give provinces billions a year through the Canada social transfer to support higher education, and it's through that transfer that they will have dollars to actually deliver real programming. Education, including adult education and basic education like literacy, is a provincial responsibility. If you want the federal government to teach illiterate people how to read, well, we're going to have to spend billions of dollars and get into the provincial jurisdiction. I don't think any of us want that.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you very much.

We'll go now to Mr. Butt, for five minutes.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Brad Butt Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Thank you, Minister and deputy ministers, for being here today.

As I see this study, the role for this committee is obviously to look at how we can improve these agreements and provide some good advice to the ministry on better ways for skills development training in Canada.

I know, Minister, you were recently in Germany studying how it does training and skills development, and how the integration works with the private sector, etc. Are there some things you learned during that trip which you can share with the committee that might be helpful for us in our deliberations? Are there things they're doing successfully that we could be incorporating? Are there other jurisdictions you would recommend perhaps our committee look at in this study to see if we can learn some best practices from what other jurisdictions are doing?

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Yes, absolutely. The reason that I led this study mission was precisely because I think we Canadians, as big and as open as we are, sometimes become a bit insular. We sometimes think we've got the model. I think the truth is that when it comes to skills development, we are anything but a model. We have one of the highest levels of university academic enrolment in the world, which is great. A lot of young Canadians graduate with university degrees. Unfortunately, as we know, a growing percentage of them go on to be under-employed or employed in areas in which they did not study.

As I said, we also have one of the lowest levels of private sector investment in skills development in the developed world. We have 14% youth unemployment, which is unacceptable, and 14% unemployment among recent immigrants. We also have unacceptable levels of unemployment among our aboriginal people. All of this is in an economy where employers are saying that skills shortages are their primary challenge, so something is not working here.

That's why I invited key stakeholders, including my provincial counterparts, business organizations and labour unions to join me on a study mission in Germany and the United Kingdom. We had a delegation of 30 that included five provinces, most of the major business groups and some of the larger unions.

Germany is, I think, broadly considered as having the most remarkable model, not simply the country of Germany, but what they call the Germanic system, which is very similar as well as in Austria, Switzerland and Denmark, where there is very strong moral and practical encouragement for young people in the secondary school system to go into paid apprenticeship programs. Their conception of apprenticeships is much broader than ours. We have about 150 apprenticeable occupations. In Germany they have about 350. It includes things like retail and banking, as well as construction trades.

Over 60% of young Germans, roughly at the age of 16, go into these apprenticeship programs where typically they are at an employer location for about three and a half days a week and at a vocational college for one and a half days a week. The learning they're getting, the theory they're getting in the college, is perfectly integrated with the experience they're getting at the work site, and they're getting a modest stipend. These apprenticeship programs on average last three years, which means that most young Germans are graduating with a certificate at the age of 19 on average. They're already with an employer. Over 90% of them go on to be employed in the field for which they were trained, and they're unencumbered by debt.

One thing that is key is obviously the high degree of employer involvement in the education system and the sense of responsibility employers have to invest in training. That means maintaining all that equipment, paying for trainers, paying modest salaries to the apprentices. It's a big investment. In fact, in Germany employers collectively invest the equivalent of $47 billion Canadian a year on apprenticeship programs alone.

The other key factor is what they call the parity of esteem between technical training, such as through apprenticeships, and academic university degrees. Everyone in Germany, including the academics, told us that a trade certificate which an apprentice obtains at the age of 19 has the same social and economic value in the eyes of all Germans as a university degree does. Perhaps that's the biggest cultural change we need to see in Canada. For too long we have diminished the value of technical training, experiential learning, and non-academic education.

I don't mean for a moment to set one up against the other. To the contrary, I mean to say we should value and encourage all choices, because we have, I would argue, too many young Canadians pursuing academic programs which have very poor labour market prospects and we have emerging skills gaps in more technical vocations with future skills shortages.

I think at a high level those are the issues we need to address.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you, Minister.

On to Madame Groguhé, for five minutes.

10:25 a.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to go back to the Skills Link Program and try to clear up any confusion. I would like to point out that this program is mainly for young people aged 15 to 30 years old who are dealing with barriers to employment. They are not veterans.

The problem that has been raised and that I am raising with you, Minister, is that organizations that use this program—which works very well and gives good results—face unreasonable delays in the processing of their funding applications. Furthermore, when they contact Service Canada they are unable to obtain information.

What steps do you intend on taking to resolve this situation as quickly as possible and follow up with us on this issue?

Thank you.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Thank you. I will ask my deputy minister to respond.

10:25 a.m.

Ian Shugart Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development

Mr. Chair, perhaps it would be more useful if we were to look into the situation within the department and provide you with details when we come back next week.

10:25 a.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

Yes, I could send you the details and you could follow up by providing us with information.

10:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

All I can say is that every week I receive the list of grants that are recommended by the department and then I approve them or not.

There certainly is a system and we will find out if there are any administrative problems.

10:25 a.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

Fine, thank you.

10:25 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Minister, you've recently mused that you'd like to see the Alberta pilot on occupation-specific work permits expanded to the national level. How many people have been accepted into the pilot project so far? If you don't have that, could you maybe send it to us?