Evidence of meeting #20 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was study.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul Thompson  Assistant Deputy Minister, Processing and Payment Services Branch, Service Canada
Frank Vermaeten  Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Ian Shugart  Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased to report to the committee that we have signed, as I mentioned, agreements in principle with all thirteen provinces and territories, for them to deliver the Canada job grant through something called the Canada job fund. Through these agreements, we're renaming what was previously known as the labour market agreements as the Canada job fund. This will be a $500-million annual transfer to provinces allocated on a per capita basis. The provinces, in these agreements, are committing to allocate 40%, i.e., $200 million of the $500 million, toward employer-led training initiatives, which is enormous progress.

Mr. Chairman, I should back up a step and remind members that it was actually our government in 2007 that created, de novo, the labour market agreement and a half a billion dollar annual transfer to provinces specifically to address those Canadians who are, as we say, technically more distant from the labour market, folks who haven't been working for a while. We have the labour market development agreement, $2 billion, that comes out of EI funds for folks who are either on EI or who have worked in the past three years, but we realized there was a group of Canadians who perhaps had never qualified because they actually had never worked. Many of them maybe didn't finish high school, have literacy challenges, maybe are on social assistance, etc.

We developed, with provinces, some specific programming with this $500 million of new funding in 2007. However, as a general observation, Mr. Chairman, we were concerned, based on input and data, that we were getting inadequate results for the taxpayer's buck when it comes to training Canadians; that there were too many training programs that were training people for jobs that didn't exist, or training them for the sake of training; that some of these tax dollars were supporting the endless churn of resumé factories and well-intentioned organizations that really weren't linking people up with jobs in the real labour market.

We also observed that according to the OECD, Canadian governments collectively spend more on skills development and job training than governments in any other developed country, but Canadian employers in the private sector spend less, relatively, than virtually any other developed country.

The job grant came from this observation that we weren't getting maximum bang for the taxpayer's buck in terms of jobs created through the training system, and employers were under-investing in the system. The observation was we could address both of those deficiencies by priming the pump to increase the private sector employer investment in training, and then the employers would have an incentive to actually employ the people trained. That was the concept of the job grant.

As you know, we proposed it in the 2013 budget. We had some back and forth with the provinces. When I became responsible for the file last summer, I immediately began contacting provinces. I listened to them, listened to the business community and labour unions, and others, and we came back with several different iterations of the proposal, and finally came to an agreement in principle in March.

I'm very pleased with this. There would not only be $200 million of the $500-million Canada job fund transfer allocated to, generally, employer-led initiatives, which will typically mean consortia of businesses working through service-providing organizations to engage the long-term unemployed with relevant training that leads to actual jobs, but in addition to that, provinces are committing to spend $300 million, once fully implemented, on the Canada job grant. The key flexibility that we offered to get their agreement here was that they could source that $300 million in year four through any source of funds. That could come from any one of the roughly $3 billion we transferred in skills development. We also transferred, by the way, notionally, about $3 billion for post-secondary education, through the Canada social transfer. Oh, and by the way, we transferred tens of billions of dollars in other programs. They could source the $300 million out of any source of funds.

The commitment there is that they will set up a program that employers can apply for. What employers will do is identify individuals for specific training programs. They will make a commitment to hire those individuals at the back end of the training, and the employers will, on average, have to commit to paying for a third of the cost of the training.

We have introduced flexibility for the small and medium-sized businesses that have limited capacity, so they can either put in as little as 15% cash into the job grant, or they can account for half of their contribution through wages paid to trainees while they're undergoing training.

This has been an example of federalism working. I think the provinces have actually gone from being, shall we say, unenthusiastic to quite enthusiastic about the prospect of this new program. We have signed final agreements with five provinces, and I would hope that within a matter of weeks we'll have completed all the others.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you, Minister.

We will move to Mr. Cuzner, for five minutes.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

I'm sorry I took up all your time there.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

I want to commend my colleague for that one question. That was quite an answer. I'm hoping you'll be a little bit shorter with me, Minister.

If I may sort of lay a base here, how many temporary foreign workers were there at the end of 2013? Do we have preliminary numbers?

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

I'm sorry, come again?

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

At the end of 2013, do we have preliminary numbers on how many temporary foreign workers there were?

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

I'm still waiting for CIC to give us their tabulations.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

How soon after you get them could the committee get those numbers?

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

I keep asking them as well, so I'll let you know when I hear from CIC.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

You wouldn't know how many LMOs have been signed, would you?

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

We understand that the number of LMOs was down by about 20% in 2013. We think that's primarily because of our cost-recovery fee.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

The Prime Minister was saying it was down 30%, and you're saying 20%.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

That's for the low-skilled stream.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

That's for the low-skilled stream, but you do agree that between 2006 and 2012 the number of temporary foreign workers had increased by 200,000.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

No, not at all.

Well, there are two ways of looking at any of these statistics. One is the number of admissions and one is the total population.

In terms of the admission of so-called temporary foreign workers, it was 138,000 in 2006, and in 2012 it was 213,000, so that was—

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Our analyst said it was 340,000.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

The 340,000 is the total population of temporary foreign workers who may have been in Canada on any one day in 2012. That's the population.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Do you think we're at about 340,000 temporary foreign workers now?

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

I have to say that because we don't have an exit information system, we don't know how many of those people have actually left. A lot of these youth mobility workers, for example, actually only come in for a few months and then go. We don't actually count that in our system.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

That would be a worthwhile measurement, absolutely.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Exactly.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

The C.D. Howe study referenced that they believe that between B.C. and Alberta, the temporary foreign worker program is distorting the labour market up to about 4%.

That, combined with the fact that since 2006 there has been a 68% increase in Canadian jobs that are paying minimum wage, does the impact of this program on the labour market in this country concern you?

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

I'm concerned not only about allegations of abuse, but also about the prospect that some aspects of the program may be distorting parts of the Canadian labour market. This is a central consideration for us as we move forward in the next round of changes.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

It's more than only the administration, it is the impact of the program. I think a complete and transparent study of the program would benefit Canadian business and the workers themselves.

If we could simply square the circle on one, I asked a question earlier this week and your response was, “but let us not forget that it was the Liberal government that created the low-skills stream of this program in 2002. All we have done since then is to tighten the rules.” You were half right on that. We did create the low-skilled stream. When we left office, there were 36,000 temporary foreign workers on positive LMOs in 2005. By 2012, that had grown to 107,000. In 2007, the parliamentary secretary to the then minister of citizenship and immigration said “We're processing a record number of temporary foreign workers.” Then in 2008, your predecessor, Minister Finley, responded in Hansard, “We have made it faster and simpler for employers to hire a foreign worker...”.

Can you reconcile the two positions of yours and Minister Finley's?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

I would say, Mr. Cuzner, that I think there is a misunderstanding about this program, because in the immigration system we set targets. The government determines how many permanent residents enter. In the temporary foreign worker program, at least with respect to those who come in on LMOs, the government has never set a quota target. Rather, it's a demand-driven program, and we've seen growing demand. That gets screened through the LMO process.

I would make this point. If you talk to all the business organizations, they'll tell you that we've tightened up the rules so much they find it almost impossible to use. I think that had we not done so, the growth that you talk about would have been exponentially larger.