Evidence of meeting #23 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Tyler Meredith  Research Director, Institute for Research on Public Policy
Barbara Byers  Secretary-Treasurer, Canadian Labour Congress
Chris Atchison  Chair, Canadian Coalition of Community-Based Employability Training
Monique Sauvé  President, Réseau des carrefours jeunesse-emploi du Québec
Frédéric Lalande  Director General, Coalition des organismes communautaires pour le développement de la main-d'oeuvre
Richard Gravel  Vice President, Coalition des organismes communautaires pour le développement de la main-d'oeuvre

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

I call the meeting to order.

First of all, welcome to the witnesses who are here. I'm going to be introducing you in a few moments.

There is some leftover business that committee members have to deal with, and it has to do with Bill C-31, which we left off, if you recall, at the end of the last meeting. We were interrupted by votes and had to adjourn our meeting quickly. This is just to finish off what I believe is a motion regarding reporting back to the finance committee.

I see Mrs. McLeod wants the floor.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

I'll talk about the specific language, but as we heard from our witnesses, I think we have some pretty positive changes that I hope all parties will support.

I move:

That, following its consideration of the subject matter of clauses 242 to 251, 371 to 374, and 483 to 486 of Bill C-31, the Committee send a letter to the Chair of the Standing Committee on Finance informing him that the Committee has no amendments to propose.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

We have a motion on the floor. Is there any discussion?

Ms. Sims.

8:45 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

This does not in any way prohibit any other motions being taken through other committees or through other processes, does it?

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

No. This is strictly that, as a committee, we've been dealing with looking at the sections that apply.

8:45 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

I just wanted to make sure, Chair. Thank you.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

I assume we will get it back that way.

Is there any further discussion?

(Motion agreed to)

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

As the Chair, I'll send that letter off to the finance committee, and now we're moving on to today's agenda.

First of all, I'll go back to my traditional introduction. I'd like to say good morning to everyone. This is meeting 23 of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. Today is Tuesday, May 13, 2014, and we are continuing our study on the renewal of the labour market development agreements, otherwise known by the acronym LMDAs.

For the first hour this morning, we have witnesses from the Canadian Labour Congress and the Institute for Research on Public Policy. Joining us in person, we have Ms. Barbara Byers, secretary-treasurer of the Canadian Labour Congress. Also joining us is Mike Luff. Mike is the senior researcher, social and economic policy department at the Canadian Labour Congress.

By way of video conference from Montreal, we have Mr. Tyler Meredith, research director from the Institute for Research on Public Policy.

I understand you can hear us, sir, but you're not able to see us. Is that correct?

8:45 a.m.

Tyler Meredith Research Director, Institute for Research on Public Policy

Yes, that's correct.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

We'll get by with that. If you can solve that problem at your end, you'll be able to look into the committee through the lens.

Let's begin today's testimony with the Canadian Labour Congress, and I'm not sure which witness is going to go first.

Ms. Byers, please proceed.

May 13th, 2014 / 8:45 a.m.

Barbara Byers Secretary-Treasurer, Canadian Labour Congress

I'll be making the presentation, and then Mr. Luff will be joining in during the question period.

Good morning everyone.

We're glad to be here.

On behalf of the 3.3 million members of the Canadian Labour Congress, we do appreciate the opportunity to comment on the renewal of the labour market development agreements. We want to make four recommendations.

The first is we need to collect better labour market information. Public policy must be based on solid evidence, not anecdotal claims of a general labour and skills shortage. Indeed, a growing number of studies suggest these claims are seriously exaggerated. Moreover, the latest Statistics Canada job vacancy survey shows there were 6.7 unemployed Canadians for every job vacancy. That ratio more than doubles when you include underemployed Canadians.

Clearly, the challenge we face is a shortage of good jobs, not a shortage of workers. That being said, it's widely noted there are some shortages in specific regions and occupations. However, getting detailed information on these vacant jobs is a very tough task. The Statistics Canada job vacancy survey is a good start, but it does not provide data by specific occupation, and it lacks regional and local detail. We recommend the federal government increase funding to Statistics Canada so it can develop more detailed labour market data.

Second, we need to adopt a partnership approach. The introduction of the Canada job grant demonstrates that unilateral action results in confusion, conflict, and poorly designed programs. In contrast, studies show that labour market programs are more effective and equitable when developed in partnership with key stakeholders.

The labour movement plays a critical role in training through collective bargaining, sectoral training funds, and delivering apprenticeship programs in a variety of skilled trades. Training programs must match skills with jobs, but workers want more than just firm-specific skills. They want broadly based training that provides a wide range of skills, including better literacy and essential skills upgrading. They also want those skills recognized with a certificate or a credential so they are portable in the broader labour market.

We recommend a renewed set of LMDAs. The federal government and each province and territory should be required to establish a labour market partners forum with representation from key stakeholders, including government, labour, employers, education, and community organizations.

The third recommendation is we need to expand access to LMDA programs. The last two EI monitoring assessment reports provide details about recent net impact evaluations of LMDA programs. The evaluations show that the skills development programs are very effective. These involve the longer-term training interventions, which often lead to a credential. According to the evaluations, skills development programs increase the incidence and duration of employment, and increase earnings for people over both the short and medium terms.

This is good news. The goal of LMDA programs must not be to simply push everyone back into the labour market as fast as possible into any job. The goal must be to help workers get the skills they need to improve their long-term employability and land good jobs with decent wages.

More than 1.3 million Canadians are unemployed today. However, less than 40% of them are eligible for EI. Too many Canadians are being left out in the cold when it comes to LMDA programs.

We recommend the federal government expand eligibility for LMDA programs by establishing a national eligibility requirement of 360 hours for unemployed and underemployed workers to access training. In addition, we recommend that EI part I income benefits be extended for the full duration of LMDA training programs. People need to be able to pay their bills and put food on the table when participating in a longer-term training program.

Our fourth recommendation is we need to invest more in training. The OECD has repeatedly noted that Canada is near the bottom of the industrialized world when it comes to public expenditures on active labour market measures. We need more investment in training, and not just shifting money from one pocket to another, as the federal government is doing with the Canada job grant.

Expanding eligibility and funding for LMDA programs would not add any new cost to the government's budget. The funding would come from the EI operating account, which is made up of contributions from workers and employers. The EI fund is not currently using the full amount that may be spent on LMDA programs. According to the EI Act, up to $4.4 billion can be spent on LMDA programs each year. However, only $2 billion is being transferred. Further, the EI account is forecast to have a $3.8-billion surplus this year and large surpluses in the years ahead. It does not make sense to have unspent LMDA training dollars when the EI account is in surplus and unemployed Canadians need to upgrade their skills. We recommend that instead of using surpluses to freeze or reduce EI premiums, part of the surplus should be used to expand eligibility for LMDA training programs.

Once again, thank you for the opportunity. I look forward to your questions and comments about our recommendations.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you very much.

Now we'll move on to Mr. Meredith, who is speaking on behalf of the Institute for Research on Public Policy.

Please proceed, sir. We can see you.

8:55 a.m.

Research Director, Institute for Research on Public Policy

Tyler Meredith

Yes, and I can see you. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning. My name is Tyler Meredith, and I am a research director at the Institute for Research on Public Policy in Montreal, where I oversee the institute's research programs in the areas of skills, labour market policy, as well as pension and retirement issues.

I would like to briefly touch on three issues that I believe are central to your review of the LMDAs, although there are a number of other things that we can talk about, and some things that certainly came up in Barbara's presentation.

I think its important to stress that the LMDAs are the principal instrument that the federal government has at its disposal for shaping and directing the interactions that it has with provinces and territories on the design of labour market policy in Canada. This is very important.

The three items that I want to focus on are: number one, improving the quality of labour market information and research on what works; number two, increasing collaboration and coordination on labour market policy across jurisdictions; and number three, providing better supports to people before they become unemployed.

The first and most significant challenge facing labour market policy in Canada is clearly the issue of access to reliable, timely, and detailed labour market information, LMI. Though there have been a number of positive developments since the advisory panel's report in 2009-10, including the introduction of the job vacancy survey, and the linking together of tax, census, and labour market data sets, our LMI system is still deficient in a number of respects. Your committee is likely well aware of these particular challenges, but I would stress that in the context of the LMDA renewals, there exists an important opportunity to engage provinces and territories in redesigning and upgrading our LMI system.

I believe that fixing LMI will require a number of changes, both within and outside the LMDA process. These include: developing and reinvigorating sectoral relationships with employers; ensuring more consistent collection of program data across provinces; renewing funding for firm-level surveys such as the workplace and employee survey, and increasing the capacity to capture LMI at a regional and local level; and finally, investing in local capacity-building initiatives to make use of LMI for long-term workforce planning, in cooperation with provinces, territories and local service providers.

For ESDC, it is also important that the LMDA process provide a better feedback loop between the design of interventions and outcomes, in other words, helping us to better understand what works. For several years the department has been engaged in efforts to use administrative data to evaluate the long-term outcomes of clients using different EBSM interventions. This is now a growing area of study in the international literature, and I would argue that it is critical for the LMDA process to provide mechanisms for provinces and territories to adjust their programs in light of this information.

On the design of programs, I would simply comment that what little evidence we do have suggests that investments in skills development are by far the most effective intervention in raising long-term earnings and reducing the future hazard of unemployment. For many vulnerable groups the key to secure employment is in raising levels of attained education and developing formal skills.

My second point relates to the limited extent of collaboration and coordination between and among federal and provincial partners. For various reasons, since the introduction of the LMDAs in the 1990s, transfers and policy-making have proceeded on a bilateral basis between the federal government and each province or territory. While this is not unique to the area of labour market policy, it has in many respects inhibited responsiveness to labour market concerns at the national level.

The weak institutional characteristics of the Forum of Labour Market Ministers has meant that there is limited capacity for knowledge sharing, harmonization and collaboration in program development across provinces, and there exist few incentives for programs to support pathways for workers that may extend beyond one province's or territory's boundaries. It is vital that the LMDA process provide a renewed governance mechanism that goes beyond bilateral policy-making, and enables an active pan-Canadian forum for planning, priority setting, and intergovernmental collaboration and experimentation.

My final point relates to the longer-term need to expand the focus of federal policy away from one exclusively focused through the employment insurance program on training and re-employment needs of Canadians once they become unemployed. In this respect I believe that the Canada job grant is potentially a significant departure in policy as it recognizes the need to support training investments within firms, and to assist employees in moving up the skill ladder, in addition to those Canadians who are unemployed.

With so much public investment focused on the traditional education pathway for those zero to 25 years of age, Canada needs to better develop the system of supports available to Canadians to upgrade their skills later in life, and preferably before they become unemployed.

If employers are unable or unwilling to make these investments in their own workplace, there must be adequate supports to assist workers with the time and opportunity cost of upgrading skills.

As the next generation of LMDAs come on stream over the next decade, Canada's labour market will undergo profound changes as labour force growth slows and baby boomers continue their transition from work to retirement. Adapting to this new normal will require a stronger focus on investments in skills and more effective LMI and program design.

I can comment on a number of other aspects, but given the available time, I think it's best that we leave that to the question and answer session.

I thank you for the opportunity to appear.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you, Mr. Meredith.

We'll move on to our first round of questioning. They're five-minute rounds.

Madam Sims.

9 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Let me congratulate Barb Byers on her recent election to the Canadian Labour Congress as secretary-treasurer. Welcome to this panel in that capacity.

As you know, over the last year or so we've heard a lot of controversy around the Canada job grant and the way it was rolled out. In other words, decisions were made on the parameters around its administration even before any serious consultation occurred. All the provinces rejected that particular approach, and it took months to reach individual agreements with one province at a time. During that time, much time was wasted.

Do you believe we need a different approach when it comes to LMDAs?

9 a.m.

Secretary-Treasurer, Canadian Labour Congress

Barbara Byers

Yes, absolutely. My experience over a long time working in this area has been that we need labour market partner forums.

I think what happened with the Canada job grant could have been avoided if there had been discussions not only with the provinces and territories, but also with labour, employers, and community agencies. They should get into a discussion not so much about a specific workplace but about what we need for a national employment policy. If we have this at the provincial and territorial levels, then we also obviously need to have the same thing at the federal level, but there is a different way of doing things. You can't just come in and decree it.

9 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

As you mentioned, access to EI is at a historic low.

9 a.m.

Secretary-Treasurer, Canadian Labour Congress

9 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Only four in 10 unemployed Canadians are eligible, yet we have an account that has quite a surplus growing, as you know.

When only people who are on EI can access training, this becomes really restrictive as well. What are the consequences of such limited access, especially for Canadians seeking longer-term employment opportunities? How could access to training be improved?

You made a couple of suggestions. Maybe you could expand on them.

9 a.m.

Secretary-Treasurer, Canadian Labour Congress

Barbara Byers

Sure.

We have recommended that access to training for EI-eligible people be at 360 hours. People have heard that consistently from the Canadian Labour Congress over a large number of years.

We need to ensure though that somebody doesn't get partway through longer-term training only to have somebody say they're no longer EI eligible. That's why we've said that as long as they're in the training program they started in, they should be able to continue getting access. Ultimately, people make decisions, as everyone does, about whether they can afford to put food on their table, whether they can pay their rent, these sorts of things. You can't have the support you started with being yanked.

I found out this morning that in my home province of Saskatchewan—I believe Saskatchewan has that sort of provision. If somebody is partway through the training and loses EI, then there are provisions for that, but we need to have better access.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Thank you.

Public accounts show that the government refused to spend all the money it was granted by Parliament on basic skills and literacy. What would you say the impact of this was on workers and on job creation?

9:05 a.m.

Secretary-Treasurer, Canadian Labour Congress

Barbara Byers

It had a huge impact on workers.

A variety of people are trying to get into training, particularly in the essential skills and literacy area. This is an area that was much more vibrant in the Canadian economy. We had more agencies. The labour movement had played a really active role in on-site workplace literacy programs. That support isn't there for people anymore. We're trying to get people to upgrade their skills, but some of them need basic skills as well.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Thank you very much.

How am I doing for time, Mr. Chair?

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

You have 30 seconds.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

I have 30 seconds. Let's see what we can do.

Currently there's a push to get people back to work and into any job, never mind the skill sets they have or the ones they need to develop. What kind of an impact does this have on the workforce?