Human Resources Committee on May 13th, 2014

[Mike Luff]

Yes.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Ms. Byers, in your fourth recommendation, you talked about the Canada Job Grant. You deplored the fact that in some cases, money was being taken from one pocket and put into another and that, of $4 billion that could have been spent, only $2 billion really is slated to be spent.

Can you give us the clearest examples of how dysfunctional this is? Can you also tell us what the consequences are? Can you give us a couple of examples that characterize the situation you want to improve?

[Barbara Byers]

There are hundreds of thousands of Canadians across the country who could be using that extra $2 billion for longer-term training, hopefully for jobs that will be decent and more stable. They would hopefully then not have to access EI again. There are people who certainly come to our attention on a regular basis who want to get into training. Either they know that their eligibility on EI is going to be so short that they won't be able to continue with it, or they don't qualify because of the current rules.

We're saying that if there's $4.4 billion available for this kind of work on LMDAs, and if we're only spending $2 billion, and then we're saying that there's a problem with training and skill shortages in the country, it seems to me that the problem isn't with the individuals. The problem is that we're not spending, either employers or governments, on what needs to be done in training.

We're going to have, as pointed out, a surplus again this year, and it's projected there will be further surpluses. We've already seen what happens with surpluses in the EI account. They disappear.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Meredith, do you want to comment on that aspect of the recommendations?

Can you give us examples of cases where the funds were not used?

[Tyler Meredith]

I have to admit that I'm not as familiar with what I think you're trying to get at in that question, because I more or less look at the actuarial position of the account. I would simply say, as I said before to Mr. Cuzner, that I think, when the next rate review has to be done, there will be an opportunity to look at using some of the room that will become available.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you.

Thank you for being so courteous.

Mrs. McLeod, you have five minutes.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses.

Some things, I think, are beneficial ideas, and some areas I'm not as sure are the right way forward. I do think it's important to point out that the EI fund is intended to balance over seven years. We have made a commitment to balancing it. As you may recall, a number of years in the last seven-year period were very difficult, so if we suggest that there is a surplus this year, I think we need to take that into account in terms of how this fund is going to balance. Certainly our government committed not to take it from the employers and employees, but to make sure that it had that balancing mechanism in place.

The next place I want to go I am struggling with a little. The LMDA is not to be the be-all and end-all for all skills training and employment situations. We just did a study on the ASEP program, and those are significant dollars going to our aboriginal communities in terms of some of their needs. We know we have the labour market agreements. We know we have the fund for people with disabilities. You talked about training and about the nurse who might want to do upgrades. My son is a nurse. He just did his critical care course, and his employer helped him. We heard about Colin who supported skills training. I would be a little bit reluctant to suggest that maybe the mom-and-pop operation that is really struggling just to make ends meet should sort of take over supporting some of those things that employers are already doing through increases to them.

We really need to focus on what the LMDA is, who it is there to help, and how we are going to move forward. I don't believe it is the catch-all for everything.

After we started this study, I went to the B.C. website and I read their last report, the one for 2013-14.

Mr. Meredith, have you looked at all the different provincial reports? Can you talk a little bit about the variation across the provinces? Are there some reports that we should all make sure we read, particularly, let's say, the last year's performance report from a province? Do you have any thoughts on that? Should we read them all, or are there one or two that...?

[Tyler Meredith]

I have to tell you, as someone who tries to follow this stuff very closely, it is very difficult, because you're working with so many different data sources. I appreciate that question.

I would argue that the monitoring and assessment report is probably the best place for information on what's happening, because it's the only place you can try to get consistent data. When I've gone back and tried to look at the annual reports that the various provinces are submitting to Ottawa, it's frankly been hard to tell what the outcomes are.

I think the LMA evaluation that you received, or that you have probably seen, which was done last year on the LMAs—and it's a different population from the one you would see in the LMDAs—gives you a very good indication, which I think is a good starting point for analysis, about the effectiveness of different kinds of interventions. This is where we really don't know a lot about the long-term effectiveness of different kinds of programs and different kinds of services, because they vary.

The benefit of the way the LMDAs and the LMAs are structured is that you kind of have a choice from among five or six different kinds of interventions that you can use. Over time that should allow you to do some experimentation and analysis about what works and what doesn't. I think that LMA evaluation report is a very significant contribution to the literature in that it tells us, basically, that skill development is very important.

What B.C. is doing with their new centre for employment excellence, with respect to workplace practices or employment practices, is a very important starting point for qualitative analysis with stakeholders on how different populations find their way into work.

I think it would be really good for ESDC to continue the work they've started on longitudinal analysis on their data sets, because that's what's going to begin to tell us, for programming design across the country, what provinces should be focusing on.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I appreciate that.

You said there are six or seven interventions that you can do. Can you quickly tell us what those six or seven are?

[Tyler Meredith]

You have a basic level of employment assistance supports. When someone comes in to an office, they can get support for information. It will tell them what kinds of jobs are in demand. Then the official offers to sit down with them to provide some counselling. There are two steps there around employment supports or information and counselling to that individual. That's where most of the interventions happen for most people.

From there, whoever is working with the client, after figuring out whether the person is or is not an EI client, will in most provinces or service providers stream them into some kind of intervention, if that is deemed necessary. That intervention could be some training they are going to get in order to get a credential. It could have some relationship to an apprenticeship program. It could be a wage subsidy to help them gain some work experience. It could even be through another series of programs called job partnerships, whereby essentially the service provider, whether the province in some cases or a non-profit agency contracted by a province, goes into the field and works with employers to create partnerships in order to create work through which clients can demonstrate their skills and learn skills in the workplace.

There's a much better explanation for this than I can give you at this point in time if you look at the LMA evaluation. Many of the same interventions in the LMAs for those dealing with a different population are designed into the LMDAs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you very much, Mr. Meredith.

I should point out to the witnesses that if you have, as Mr. Meredith was I think struggling at the end to provide, the fulsome answer, more information that you'd like to provide to the committee on your thoughts and views, please do so; you're welcome to present it at any time during our study.

Thank you to the first panel of witnesses for being here today. We'll have a short recess while we welcome our second panel.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. We continue with the second hour of our committee's meeting about the renewal of the LMDAs.

Joining us from the Canadian Coalition of Community-Based Employability Training is the chairman, Chris Atchison. Welcome.

We also have Ms. Monique Sauvé, the president of the Réseau des carrefours jeunesse-emploi du Québec. I apologize if I do a disservice to my French counterparts when I pronounce that, but it's not my strong suit.

From La Coalition des organismes communautaires pour le développement de la main-d'oeuvre, we have their director general, Mr. Frédéric Lalande and their vice-president, Richard Gravel. Welcome.

We will have your presentations, which will be 10 minutes maximum in length, and then we'll move on to questioning.

Let's begin with Mr. Atchison. Would you please proceed with your presentation.

[Chris Atchison, Chair, Canadian Coalition of Community-Based Employability Training]

Mr. Chair, I would like to thank you and the committee on behalf of the Canadian Coalition of Community-Based Employability Training, or the slightly shorter acronym to reference us by, which is CCCBET. Despite our national scope and representation, and despite our rich history of delivery and contributions to community, this is a significant occasion for us to speak with this committee today. It provides hope that our sector will be given future opportunities to contribute to the labour market strategies that will best serve Canadians through the renewal of the LMDAs.

CCCBET represents hundreds of community-based employment and training organizations, or CBTs, across Canada. CBTs play an essential role in upscaling individuals and providing them with the best opportunity to find and maintain success in the workplace. CBTs also represent a significant human resources function to thousands—dare I say hundreds of thousands—of small and medium-sized businesses across Canada who do not have the knowledge or resources to attend to their own HR needs. These employers contact CBTs when they need people, and look to CBTs when they have jobs to fill or a training need. CBTs use their professional means and collaborative networks within communities to find the right person for the right job and the right training for the individual. They do it all. Large companies with their own HR departments will also contact CBTs to access clients working in earnest to improve their employability skills and to advance their employment opportunities and potential. CBTs are a game-changing gateway for clients, and they are an invaluable resource for employers.

CCCBET is the pan-Canadian representative of this labour market service sector that understands the skills employers want and the training individuals need. In addition, we have always been there to complement and execute the federal and provincial training agreements that are in place. Our sector currently serves clients under the four types of federal-provincial training agreements: the LMAs, the LMAPDs, the TOWs, and of course the LMDAs.

CCCBET has supported the process of devolution in each province and duly applauds the federal government for their decision to go this route. We are unanimous in our belief that the provinces and territories are better equipped to be responsive to regional and local labour market issues and that the role of the federal government is best suited to set the vision and the broad operational parameters. At present, there is no Canada-wide framework on goals, objectives, and measures. Currently, all arrangements are negotiated bilaterally for the 49 different agreements across the country. Each training agreement has different accountability provisions, making it almost impossible to paint a pan-Canadian picture to better inform the policy realm. Under these agreements there are no formal ways for business, labour, or the CBT agencies to provide consistent and meaningful data to the system it is meant to serve.

I would like to be clear that CCCBET embraces the principles of greater employment involvement in training, including more employer participation, higher employer investment, and real training for real jobs. However, given the recent and ongoing concern with primarily employer-driven programs, CCCBET cautions against similar one-dimensional approaches towards the LMDAs renewal and any resulting strategies that may exclude the values-based leadership and experience of the CBTs. With their demand-driven stakeholders already identified and poised to influence the policy for labour market services, it is critical from CCCBET's perspective that our sector be included in the discussions that will shape this new generation of LMDAs.

True workforce development needs multiple stakeholder approaches that link sector initiatives, major economic development projects, post-secondary and secondary education systems, apprenticeships, and community-based employment organizations. A pan-Canadian entity like CCCBET can assist in crafting policy based on our years of experience in working with clients, employers, and funders who engage with our labour market services and who have done so for decades.

CCCBET supports research, reliable and comprehensive labour market information, increased labour market mobility, effective employment services, and the continual improvement in workforce development practices. We have a vested interest in getting it right, doing it well, and being accountable for the public investment in the services we deliver on the ground and in your communities.

I spoke with sincerity at the outset when I said this is a big deal for CCCBET to be given the chance to speak with this committee today, and quite frankly, it shouldn't be. We should be sought after and utilized in consultation for the resources we are and for the labour market professionals we represent.

I want to thank you for the time you've offered CCCBET this morning and look forward to the questions you may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you very much.

We'll move to Madame Sauvé, for up to 10 minutes.

[Monique Sauvé, President, Réseau des carrefours jeunesse-emploi du Québec]

Members of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities, ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to thank you for this opportunity to speak before the committee.

My name is Monique Sauvé. I am President of the Réseau des carrefours jeunesse-emploi du Québec and Executive Director of the Laval Carrefour jeunesse-emploi.

I'd like to speak about the Employment Assistance Services program and about the work the CJE are doing in Quebec to help young people and their communities. Each year, more than 60,000 Quebec youth experience success in their lives thanks to individualized support from the CJEs.

I will then talk about our essential role in matching training and jobs for all young people in Quebec, regardless of their profile; and in helping young people find their place in society by helping them to find meaningful employment, return to school or start a small business.

But first, I'd like to express our gratitude to the federal government for renewing the Canada-Quebec Labour Market Development Agreement and for consolidating the assistance provided to Quebec youth. We would also like to applaud Minister Jason Kenney's willingness to acknowledge Quebec's reality by renewing this agreement. Not renewing it would have had an unprecedented impact on Quebec youth and their active involvement in the labour market.

In March 2014, the Institut de la statistique du Québec reported that the participation of youth in the labour market had increased 16% between 1996 and 2012. Interestingly, most of the CJEs were created in 1997. Although it is impossible to establish a direct correlation between this statistic and the creation of the CJEs, employment figures certainly confirm that CJEs have played a role in integrating Quebec youth into the labour market.

The CJEs help young people find meaningful employment and complete their studies. According to a recent report by Raymond, Chabot, Grant, Thornton, the activities of CJEs in Quebec generate economic spinoffs of $72 million annually from a government investment of $46 million.

All 110 Carrefours jeunesse-emploi have been in existence for more than 15 years. They provide young adults with job search counselling, educational and vocational advice, entrepreneurship awareness, and business start-up guidance. Besides these services, their approach, expertise, ingenuity, and innovations are unique and underlie their achievements throughout the years.

In an environment of comprehensive flexible support that reflects their realities, the young people who use the services of a CJE have an opportunity to take part in stimulating projects and activities that help steer them toward successful employment in jobs they will want to keep and that fulfil their aspirations.

CJE clients experience success through services and projects that are tailored to their needs. This flexibility is possible because of unique and special financial support from the Employment Assistance Services program that reflects the mandate of the CJEs, and supports our work, the services we offer, and our success with young people in Quebec.

At Carrefours jeunesse-emploi we allow our services and projects to evolve with the job market reality, the needs of young adults, and community dynamics. The CJEs become innovative leaders as they initiate youth projects, new partnerships, and get involved in local dialogue on the realities facing young adults. The CJEs are an absolute must in their community. Together with their partners they help young adults become active citizens who blossom in their jobs, and are proud of themselves, with their diploma or business plan in their hands.

As partnerships multiply and financial contributions increase and are added to our base funding, we have been able to consolidate our youth expertise and develop innovative solutions to meet the diverse needs of young adults.

During the past four years, more than 30% of funding for Employment Assistance Services activities, that is, nearly $15 million, has come from our community and from revenue-generating activities.

CJE services and projects are open to all youth between the ages of 16 and 35 years, regardless of their profile. Some clients just need a little boost. Others want to find out what job and training options are available to them, and some need more sustained support to deal with difficult life circumstances.

With their CJE counsellor, young people who have completed their studies will explore trades and professions that are in line with their area of study and level of education. Vulnerable youth who are further from the job market might look toward semi-skilled or unskilled jobs, or take additional steps towards employment by participating in Skills Link activities under the federal government's Youth Employment Strategy. Job placements enable these young people to acquire the basic skills they need to successfully transition to the labour market. Although the education level of CJE clients tends to be lower than the Quebec average, ongoing support makes realistic employment goals possible.

All Carrefours jeunesse-emploi counsellors are well informed about job opportunities and education since they work hard for the perfect fit between the young adult's interests and skills and a quality job. This expertise contributes tremendously to facing up to one's major job market challenge: the job and education match. In recent years the CJEs have demonstrated significant efforts to increase their partnerships with school and their knowledge of all the innovative education programs.

When it comes to job match, all counsellors have been impressively creative in their approach to their economic community, by providing job fair events for young adults, promoting internships, and offering workshops on job and education conciliation. As the job-education match and mismatch becomes a reality that we need to address, all the CJEs are already acting to make all discrepancies disappear, offering the perfect fit for each and every young adult who comes to us.

It's only fitting that we hear from one of our young people.

Violence, bullying, substance abuse, family issues, homelessness: Jason, a current carrefour jeunesse-emploi client, has experienced all of them. He lived on the streets of downtown Montreal from the age of 15 to 20. He is now 23 years old and trying to get his life back on track. When Jason was 12, his widowed mother could no longer take care of him. “At 15, I dropped out of school because I was being bullied.”

After living with three different families, he ended up in a youth shelter. “I had to find a job. I fell in with the wrong crowd.” To survive, he stole and abused substances. He spent three weeks in jail. Yet, Jason says that he liked studying. With the help of Emploi-Québec and his CJE, he has his eyes set on big dreams. “I have projects on the back-burner and I'm keeping all the doors open.” Jason is currently enrolled in the secondary school vocational diploma (DEP) program and has started a small business.

The work of Quebec's CJEs with young people like Jason and many other young people in the province is critical and essential. The CJEs work every day to ensure that young people can find their place in our society.

I thank the members of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities for their attention.

It is a great privilege for me to be here.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you for your presentation.

We'll move on to Mr. Lalande and Mr. Gravel. I'm not sure which is going to lead, but one of you please proceed.

[Frédéric Lalande, Director General, Coalition des organismes communautaires pour le développement de la main-d'oeuvre]

Good morning, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, committee members, for the opportunity to present our comments in support of the committee's work.

I am the Director General of the Coalition des organismes communautaires pour le développement de la main-d'oeuvre. I am accompanied by my Vice-President, Mr. Richard Gravelle, who is also the Director General of the Collectif des entreprises d'insertion du Québec.

Following a brief overview of the coalition and the Quebec employability sector, we will focus our remarks on the three challenges to be addressed. They include how to create a direct link between training and employers' needs; how to more effectively support the return to work; and how to improve performance measurements.

We hope to show you that the Quebec model responds to the concerns of the committee and the Minister of Employment and Skills Development, who did, in fact, acknowledge that very fact last March when the Labour Market Agreement was signed.

Established in 1998 when Emploi-Québec was created, the Coalition des organismes communautaires pour le développement de la main-d'oeuvre is made up of 13 members. They include provincial coalitions representing more than 1,000 local community organizations.

The organizations that are members of the coalition play a key role in the Quebec labour market development system. Emploi-Québec turns to community-based employability organizations to assist target clients or clients with special needs and seeks out their expertise with a view to offering integrated and customized services. It also relies on their knowledge to offer certain ad hoc services linked to job searches and counselling. The advantage of involving community organizations lies in the form of intervention and a unique approach that is separate from Emploi-Québec and which complements the services offered in various regions.

Collaboration with these organizations has enabled 130,000 new participants to benefit from an employment measure in 2011-2012, which represents 47% of new participants in all of Emploi-Québec's measures and services.

I will now move on to the first challenge: How to directly link training to employers' needs.

For over 15 years, Quebec has had a unique structure in Canada: The Commission des partenaires du marché du travail. This forum for consensus is made up of representatives of employers, employees, education as well as government and community organizations. The commission plays a determinant and meaningful role in the orientation and implementation of public employment services in the labour market.

In short, Quebec companies participate to a large extent in defining labour market training needs. At present, some 10,000 companies, 75% of which have fewer than 50 employees, are receiving training and human resources management services funded by Emploi-Québec. That enables us to reach out to some 80,000 workers per year, including 10,000 who have a significant basic training deficit or no recognized skills. Companies participate in funding the training activities, covering 50% to 75% of the costs.

The problem of mismatched skills and qualifications between part of the labour force and the job requirements is one of the causes of the labour market imbalance. We believe that there must be more upstream action taken directly with companies, to validate their real labour market training needs at present and for the future. This action, with follow-up and counselling, is also necessary to integrate people who are far removed from the labour market.

For these people who are seeking services and training, it is important not to associate access to measures with specific funding sources. Flexible programs and structures which can be adjusted quickly to meet the needs of these people and the labour market must be put in place.

Now, on to the next challenge: Finding more efficient ways of supporting the return to work.

The effectiveness of the current Quebec model in terms of identifying needs and designing training and integration programs is based on the active participation of employers, workers and employability organizations. This model has stood the test of time.

In 2011-2012, action taken with employment insurance recipients resulted in $220 million in employment insurance benefits not being required. Over five years, the economic benefits of measures for individuals are estimated at $2 for each dollar invested. Ninety-three per cent of companies consider the benefits to their organization greater or equal to the effort they contributed financially or in terms of time by employees.

This model has enabled the development of several partnerships between organizations in employability development and employers grappling with certain labour market problems. An example of this are companies working in integration; they are involved in the social economy and combined training, integration and support, and work in conjunction with partners for the business community.

We could also mention the integration project, the aim of which is to hire, train and integrate in a sustainable way some 100 professional immigrants trained abroad in the immigration technology and communications sector. These are the types of successful initiatives that our organizations are developing thanks to the partnership and funding under the current model.

Finally, how to increase performance measurement.

The coalition and its member organizations participate fully in the accountability process led by Emploi-Québec. The results achieved by our members are included in the public employment services results. That means that the annual management report from the ministère de l'Emploi et de la Solidarité sociale takes into account the targets and results achieved. Improving accountability is always possible, and we believe that the new Canada-Québec Labour Market Agreement could serve that purpose.

However, we feel that there are shortcomings in the data collection at the Canada-wide level. We would, therefore, be very much in favour of setting up an initiative similar to the Canadian Institute for Health Information, but targeting employability and labour market training measures. We believe that an institution like that could allow for very relevant comparisons between the provinces and territories and foster healthy competition among the levels of government.

In conclusion, we believe that the Labour Market Development Agreement model remains relevant and yields excellent results. The stable and predictable funding associated with these agreements is key to success. We would not like to relive the Canada Job Grant episode on a regular basis.

However, significant work remains to be done because some federal and provincial government action lacks consistency and coordination, namely for persons with disabilities, young people, and experienced workers. We believe that we would all come out ahead if the Labour Market Agreement model was extended to fund measures targeting specific client groups.

Thank you for your attention, and we eagerly await your comments and questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you for your presentation.

We'll move on to the first five-minute round of questioning. We'll start with Madam Sims.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

My first question is directed to CCCBET, an acronym well worth memorizing.

Skill development programs have a pretty good track record of getting individuals back to work and into good-paying jobs. I think all of you have alluded to that today.

Can you talk specifically about the importance of individual and community involvement in selecting the type of training an individual might pursue, and what the perils are of an increasingly employer-focused approach?

[Chris Atchison]

From the standpoint of community-based trainers, there is a strong desire to ensure that an individual is looked at with the holistic view of addressing their needs when they come into an agency. Depending on the circumstances, the case managers, the career counsellors, and the workforce developers will work with that client to determine what the best course of action may be. It's always done from the perspective of getting the client back into the workplace, back to being a productive member on their terms, and addressing all the issues or barriers to employment that may be disclosed or discovered along the way.

There are a number of clients who may come in who don't need a whole lot of hand-holding. There may be clients who need a very light touch, who are self-reliant, and who just need a wake-up call, and send them on their way. They are very goal focused, and they can get things done. But it's comforting for those people who may have been displaced from a job. Maybe they have been working there a long time, maybe they are a youth who really hasn't had to look for employment yet, and they need some direction. Those community resources are essential, covering the entire gamut of people who may need their services from the severely employment disadvantaged to the self-directed client.

The participation of the employer in the discussions about their need to be involved in the training side of things is welcomed. I guess the danger or the caution is that, without that pivot point, that organization in the community who knows both the needs of the client and the needs of the employer to help balance that.... I hope that's....

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Yes. It is.

The National Association of Career Colleges has noted that the relationship between the business and education sectors is much stronger in Germany and the U.K. than it is here. I think the minister himself has acknowledged that as well, and he wants to focus on the renewed LMDAs to sort of build those kinds of relationships.

Is there room, or should room be made, for a conversation with all Canadians who pay into EI as to how these funds are distributed?

[Chris Atchison]

Yes, absolutely there needs to be a discussion. And there needs to be further research done, because I would definitely say, from my discussions with community-based employment organizations—and even our colleagues here would agree—that this interface with employers is happening now. We're just not capturing it; we've never captured it. It's been discouraged under previous LMDAs and in the previous agreements we've had to recognize or count the work that community-based agencies were doing with employers.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you.

[Chris Atchison]

That does exist already.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Are there any specific barriers you've noticed right now whose removal you think might be useful to the improvement of the LMDAs?