Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

First, we tackled cases of abuse. It's clear that the program had been abused in the past. One of the important changes we made was creating a pathway to permanent residency, which has allowed Canada to bring in more than 4,300 caregivers and their family members. Of course, there are many more who are waiting, as we work with families, but the pathway gives people who want to stay in Canada a glimmer of hope.

A lot of people are wanting to take advantage of the program in the country, and we have a duty to be open to that possibility. At the same time, we have to make sure it doesn't lead to abuse. Therefore, that is one of the measures we put in place.

I'm also very amenable to considering other measures given the significant demand for the program. I will say, though, we have to make sure that the abuse that happened in the past doesn't happen again.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

There's something that really disturbs me, not about what has been said, but about consultants who used false documents to secure visas. We've seen that in the past.

Can you talk briefly about what your department decided to do to deal with those people?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Sorry, Mr. El‑Khoury, but your time is up.

We now go to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for two and a half minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Minister, I seem to be the least partisan one at the table today, perhaps because my focus is on finding solutions.

You said you were considering the possibility of expanding open work permits for workers in specific sectors or regions, at least in Quebec.

Would that mean that the worker with the open permit would still have to comply with the contract they had signed with their first employer, or would the first employer have access to compensation if the person went to work for another employer?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Honourable Minister, you have the floor.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

As I see it, we absolutely have to discuss that with Quebec.

I'm open to everything, in the context. I'm not against the idea, but in my discussions with Quebec's Minister of Immigration, Francization and Integration, there was a desire to keep in place some of the work permit requirements that were relaxed because of the pandemic.

I'm still not sure whether I agree with that, but we made accommodations.

One thing is certain. My Quebec counterpart and I need to have a discussion. It's fine to speculate aloud, but out of respect, I'd prefer to have that conversation with her.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Very well.

There is something that concerns you directly, though, labour market impact assessments, or LMIAs, the labour market studies issued by Employment and Social Development Canada, or ESDC. They do cost money, so they do create somewhat of a financial burden.

Since Canada has a workforce development agreement with Quebec, which differs from the agreements with other provinces, and given the Québec Acceptance Certificate system, why is an LMIA necessary? Quebec is in a position to know exactly what its workforce requirements are within its own borders.

Why make employers pay for the federal government to do a study when Quebec already has authority over its workforce?

Wouldn't that be a way to provide access to open permits, while saving employers who initially bring the workers here some money?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I'm very open-minded.

Without stepping on the toes of my fellow minister, Mr. Boissonnault—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you.

We'll go to Madam Kwan.

The floor is yours, Madam Kwan, for two and a half minutes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Does the minister support the UN International Convention on the Protection of the Rights of all Migrant Workers and their Families?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

You can guess my answer, but I do, sure.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

As of today, Canada has not signed or ratified this covenant. Why is that?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

You would have to ask the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

I am glad to look at and support that covenant. The history behind Canada's non-signature of that covenant is one that we can probably discuss at a later date.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I appreciate that. I appreciate your honesty, Minister, on that question.

The special rapporteur also heard that labour inspectors collude with immigration authorities to target undocumented migrants for arrest and deportation.

I have a copy of a letter that tells people to report people and, as the minister can anticipate, if you're subject to abuse and you leave your employment, you could become undocumented very quickly while you wait for remedies. Already, as indicated, the special provision that's being offered by government.... If you've left your employment, you're not going to be eligible for an open work permit under the vulnerable workers stream.

It would be in the interests of the employer to get rid of these workers and get them deported ASAP, because they are people who will point out how they have been abused.

Does the minister agree with policies that work to get rid of the workers who have been subject to abuse as quickly as possible? If not, what action will the minister take to prevent that?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I think you could guess my answer, but I don't agree. The measures we do to make sure that people can exercise their rights, whether it is to sue employers or make sure that their rights are enforced, are in the context where lots of people are fleeing or are afraid to speak up. Again, you've made lots of suppositions in the fact pattern that you stated to me, but again I'm concerned about abuse. I'm concerned about people leveraging that potential to get people removed from the country when it hides their abuse. These are extremely limited circumstances, but these are matters where we need to investigate and perhaps exercise our regulatory powers.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Hence, the need to actually change policies to protect and support the—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Honourable member, your time is up.

We will go to Mr. Redekopp for five minutes.

Please go ahead.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Mr. Chair, I'm going to cede my time to Mr. Lehoux.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the committee for having me.

Thank you, Minister, for being here. My first question is pretty straightforward.

I'm on the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food, and in the past, I've repeatedly asked that the committee invite the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship to answer questions. Both of your predecessors turned down the invitation. Yesterday, for the fourth time, I put forward a motion to do the same thing, and it received unanimous support from the committee.

I think everything being discussed here, today, is interesting, but we have been asking for a meeting for quite some time. We'd actually like to question not just the immigration minister, but also the labour minister about LMIAs. Numerous recommendations have been made, including as part of a recent study on agri-food processing capacity, and we would like to discuss them with you.

Farms employ a lot of workers, as do agri-food processors. Many employers in my region have tried to secure foreign workers, but those processors weren't able to get the workers because of red tape.

Minister, will you commit to meeting with the members of the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Honourable Minister, please go ahead.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

The committee is independent, as am I—mostly independent-minded—but I will look at the motion. I'm not saying yes right now, but I'm not saying no.

I think it would be better to speak with my fellow minister Randy Boissonnault about LMIAs, since they fall under his authority.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

The red tape around the applications is still a problem. Businesses told me that more than 200 workers were waiting to be admitted to the country because of all the red tape at IRCC. LMIAs aren't the only problem. IRCC is the main player in that domain.

That's why we would like to meet with you, Minister, as soon as possible. We are talking about major problems. There is a lot of focus on food security and export capacity, but the workforce has to be available. I hope you will accept our invitation.

Now I have a very quick question for you.

During the pandemic, workers received open permits instead of closed permits, and a lot of businesses complained, at least in my region. They lost foreign workers, not because they were mistreating the workers, but because another employer had offered them a few extra dollars an hour, on site. That makes things harder for the businesses that initially sought out those workers. They assumed the costs of bringing those people to the country, so there is a cost attached to all that, as you, yourself, mentioned, Minister.

Currently, are closed work permits actually closed?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

You're right that reforms to the system have to take into account the fact that employers put a lot of money into attracting workers to Canada for a few months. They're hoping their investment will pay off for the duration of their season or crop year.

I'm really concerned about this. It's actually the reason why I didn't commit to making all closed permits open permits. Instead, we are going to take a close look at the working conditions and provide open permits only when abuse is happening or the facts warrant it, for instance, in a specific region or sector.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

I assume from your look that you'll agree to meet with the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri‑Food.

I'll give my time to Mr. Maguire.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Mr. Maguire you have a minute and 10 seconds.