Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[Christiane Fox]

He did not share that with us.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Are you aware that he mused about the idea that there needs to be a nation-wide ombudsman for all workers, including Canadian workers?

[Christiane Fox]

I did hear that, yes.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

According to the UN special rapporteur, the government is doing a terrible job of informing workers of their rights. That's not what the minister just told me, but do you agree with his assessment?

[Christiane Fox]

We communicate with employers and employees. When it comes to communication, you can always do more, but we do inform people of their rights. The employer compliance regime that is now in place sets the path for the employer also communicating those rights to their employees.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Is it the department's view that the current process protecting workers is sufficient by giving them an avenue to report concerns and changes in jobs as necessary?

[Christiane Fox]

We've tried to set up a system for vulnerable workers to be comfortable in coming to us and making those claims. Every system can always evolve to be more responsive to the needs to new or emerging things that occur. We are attempting to set up a system not only for employees to come forward but also for employers who are bad actors in the system, indicating there are greater penalties, so that we can address the bad actors and allow the good actors to continue to work.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

According to the latest numbers, from April 2022 to March 2023, ESDC received 5,465 tips of potential abuse.

How many of those tips resulted in a business being banned from using the program?

[Michael MacPhee]

We don't necessarily tie the tip directly to the outcome, because oftentimes the tips that do come in are related to an existing investigation that has been undertaken. About 43% of all of the tips that come in are followed up directly by ourselves, and another 23% or so are referred to other organizations, including the RCMP or local law enforcement.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Do you have a number of how many businesses have been banned from using the program?

[Christiane Fox]

I have some for our program at the IMP. Some 3,381 employers were inspected, and 13 employers were found to be non-compliant. Since 2016, about $1.3 million has been paid in compensation to workers, and in terms of administrative monetary penalties, about $670,000.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you.

Your time is up Mr. Maguire.

We'll now go to Mr. Chiang, for five minutes.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today and giving us their valuable insight on what they do.

We know that the purpose of the TFW program is to assist employers in filling specific labour market gaps without compromising the capacity of Canadians to access the job market.

Can you speak to this committee about how these objectives are accomplished, and the sector-by-sector approach taken by this program?

[Christiane Fox]

The IMP program is intended to support the economic, cultural and social goals of the country. That could be an open work permit for youth mobility agreements with other countries and having young people come to Canada, discover Canada and work in Canada. That would be one important outcome of the IMP.

The other types of outcomes are post-graduation work permits for students who come here to study and have the ability to work post-graduation. Also, trade agreements are linked to the IMP, when we have mobility agreements with other countries.

Then, on top of that, we do have sector-specific strategies for specific types of labour gaps. I will give an example in the high-tech sector. A few months ago, we announced that H-1B visa holders in the U.S. who were IT workers, etc., could come to Canada through the IMP on an open work permit to allow them to bring their experience and talent to this country. Within 48 hours, we had 10,000 applications. That would be an example of how we can use temporary foreign workers to fill a particular gap in our labour market.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you.

Among the subcategories of the TFW program, such as high-wage stream, low-wage stream, agriculture stream and caregiver stream, are there specific sectors that stand out to you as being of particularly high risk for workers' exploitation? Please explain the specific risks within these sectors.

[Christiane Fox]

I think, traditionally, we would note that low-skilled workers are more vulnerable than high-skilled, high-mobility employees who come to the country on a temporary basis. We tend to pay very close attention, I think, from a TFW standpoint, to meat-packing plants, fisheries plants and farmers. These are areas where we do take a very close look.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you.

There have been concerns raised about workers' exploitation through employer-specific or closed work permits. A report published by this committee back in 2021 noted that avoiding mistreatment and overwork is difficult for those with closed work permits, because they don't have the power to move around to another employer that would provide better working conditions. These workers are also unable to control their workload by finding additional work at other places later in the season.

What is currently being done to support TFWs with closed work permits, and where are the current gaps in enforcement for employers related to working conditions?

[Christiane Fox]

I think I would start by saying that the fact that we have employer-specific work permits does allow us to know where employees are and to do check-ins and inspections. If everyone had an open work permit, that would be a lot harder to track.

I understand that there are sensitivities around employer-specific work permits. I am very sensitive to that. However, I think we also have to be mindful that because there is an employer tied to the permit, we have an ability to inspect and to offer supports to employees who find themselves in a bad situation.

That said, I think what the department has done to address the context of vulnerable employees is setting up the open worker permit for vulnerable employees so that they have a pathway to report abuse and to be able to stay in this country and not be deported. We try to really limit the threshold for them to be able to access that open work permit.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you.

A newspaper article published by the National Post in February this year noted that, while the government does allow abused workers with closed work permits to apply for an open work permit, “it places the burden of proof” on the employer and does not “guarantee future re-employment” via the TFW program, “nor does it provide workers with the housing or support they require to find new employment”.

What additional steps can your department take to ensure that abused TFWs receive the support that they need?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Deputy Minister, you have 40 seconds.

[Christiane Fox]

I think I would say that we definitely take that to heart. I think when people make the hard decision to leave their employer because they are abused and vulnerable, first, it takes that courage from the individual to report. What we've tried to do is to have—as I said—a low threshold, a quick response to the individuals who come to us, a team who has training to deal with people who have been in an abusive situation, and an ability to get an open work permit.

I would agree that if this committee were to dig into better ways that we can communicate this program and better ways to look at the transition between their current work permit and their new work permit, or their open work permit, we are all ears to that. We want to make this successful and to make sure that people know it exists and access it throughout. I think the low evidentiary threshold we've tried to set hopefully gives people confidence that this is a recourse mechanism that is available to them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much, Mr. Parliamentary Secretary. The time is up.

Now we'll go to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for six minutes.

Please go ahead, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I wasn't planning to bring this up, but since we are talking about vulnerable workers and open permits, I will.

There are groups that advocate for farm workers, like the Réseau d'aide aux travailleuses et travailleurs migrants agricoles du Québec, or RATTMAQ. In early 2023, back in the winter, I spoke with representatives of the organization, and they couldn't understand why the department was suddenly denying applications the organization was submitting on behalf of vulnerable workers looking to obtain open permits because of abusive situations. For years prior to that, the same process for the same types of cases did not result in the same number of applications being denied.

Were you aware of that, Ms. Fox?

[Christiane Fox]

I actually met with RATTMAQ representatives in March, further to consultations on our immigration program. They talked about periodic processing delays, but I didn't hear anything about a change in the number of applications being denied.

I can certainly follow up with them to get a better sense of the issue and find out more about the change you're referring to.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I'm a bit surprised to hear that, since I had actually set up a meeting between the people at RATTMAQ and staff in then minister Sean Fraser's office to discuss that very issue. I'm surprised you weren't brought into the loop on that, given your high-ranking role at the department.

If I understand correctly, no one in the office of then minister Sean Fraser passed on any information regarding the meeting I arranged to discuss that very thing.

Do I have that right?