Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 2nd, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Now we'll go to Madam Crowder for a second question, for five minutes.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you.

I just want to comment on this. Despite the fact that there has been some investment in capital projects in schools this year, I want to turn to the parliamentary budget officer's report, which says that there are “no specific appropriations by Parliament for funding First Nations school infrastructure” and that there's “limited data on expenditure related to school infrastructure” in first nations communities.

He goes on to say that “it is imperative to have a systematic approach and methodology to determine the annual funding that needs to be set aside each year by INAC for the First Nations school infrastructure”. I just wanted to point that out because the parliamentary budget officer does a worst-case scenario and a best-case scenario, and no matter which scenario you use, it points to significant underfunding for first nations schools. That's the capital part.

I want to come back to the operating part just for one moment. A couple of people have talked about the B.C. agreement. I want to be on record here. I certainly do not speak for B.C. first nations, but they have told us on a number of occasions that the B.C. model is for B.C., and as for any suggestion that it's a cookie-cutter approach that can be applied to the rest of the country, the B.C. first nations simply don't support that.

The other issue with the B.C. agreement is that although it was very welcome in British Columbia, the fact of the matter is that the act has been in place now for a number of years and they still don't have the funding. I asked the minister as recently as last week, I guess, about what was happening with it, and they assured us that the negotiations were still ongoing. So three years later, those negotiations, which have direct impacts on children in those communities and on the ability of those schools to deliver first nations education to first nations students, are simply being undermined. So in case anybody wants to get out there and celebrate that agreement, I think it has to be put into the cold context of lack of money, as always.

I just wanted to talk about the operating part. The issue around libraries came up. Mr. Rickford rightly pointed out that it's not this government's initiative that there's no funding for libraries. I want to make it really clear. Actually, I was in a school recently where the department provided the funding to build the structure, but they actually had to rely on charity to fill the room with books. They used the Bartleman initiative in Ontario to fill that room with books.

I wonder if you could comment on the other services that are not part of your base funding. I believe technology isn't.

[Lise Bastien]

Yes. Technology is not included in the funding formula. Again, we are referring to the funding formula, which is inaccurate at this moment. Technology is not included, which means that there's no money for computers, software, hiring a technician, etc. There are also sports and leisure. For example, to have a program of sport-études, there's nothing for that. There is $215 per student for language retention and instruction.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I'm sorry, but did you say $215 per student?

[Lise Bastien]

Per student, yes, which is just impossible. If you have a school of 150 students, as you can imagine, you can't hire a teacher or develop anything about languages.

There are occupational skills, which I mentioned earlier. There's no money to have that component, especially at the high school level.

What else is there?

[Raymond Sioui]

There was an important reform in Quebec. All the curricula were reviewed for all this. A lot of training was given to their teachers, administrators, and all of this. We got nothing for that, so how can you manage to take into consideration that reform? That's very important.

I would like to say that for occupational training, we have a letter--I think it's dated June 2006--from our administrator, the director of education of INAC, from headquarters, recognizing that their programs don't fund occupational training and that they were looking to work with us to review their programs. This also never happened. There are a lot of things.

I would like, if I can, to ask you to remember those two initiatives launched by the federal government, with about $268 million over a five-year period. Well, as I said, only for 2008-09, we were losing $233 million in one year. Our schools will still be losing over $200 million or something like that, so I don't think they can manage with that much longer. They are less and less competitive and less and less in a position to offer the same services as other first nations and other provincial schools. They are asking their government to give comparable programs and services. This cannot last much longer, as you know. This will create an exodus to the provincial schools for all of this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Sioui and Ms. Crowder.

Mr. Duncan, for five minutes.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm quite concerned about what's been said here about the funding of libraries, for example. I too went to the Kitigan Zibi school. I understand they built a library in the school that was funded, and then they decided to expand the library and create a public library, as well. That's when the issue came in about non-funding.

The very next day, I was at the opening of a school in Big Horn, Alberta. They have a fully funded library and gymnasium. All of the things that your report and your testimony says are not funded indeed are funded. There are definitive statements from INAC that funding for libraries includes purchase of library materials, books, computers, multimedia, and furniture. I don't understand why we've got two solitudes here on this issue. It will be nice to get some clarity.

We were provided with this report. Now, I understand that this is a consequence of funding partially from HRSDC, but not INAC. Am I correct in that assumption?

[Lise Bastien]

No, it's about INAC.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

But the funding for your organization to produce this report would have come from HRSDC, wouldn't it?

[Lise Bastien]

Not at all.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

It's from INAC?

[Lise Bastien]

To produce the report, in fact, I think we didn't get money for that one. We got money for another one, but only about 10%. But not for this one.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Okay. Because when I pointed out the library statement to the department, they seemed to be completely unaware of that definitive statement. Of course it totally contradicts the policy of the department.

[Lise Bastien]

Are you talking about INAC?

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Yes.

[Lise Bastien]

They were not aware of their funding formula, their own funding formula?

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

They weren't aware that you were making statements that are totally contradictory to the policy of the department, as if it is the policy of the department.

[Raymond Sioui]

It might depend on who you talk to at INAC, because we had a joint working group with INAC on the formula. They did a study too, in 2006. That study also reports that there is no funding to operate a library, and that was a joint study. So it depends, I guess, on who you talk to and how they interpret the formula. There might be an amount.

What we're saying is that there is no amount to operate a library and to renew the material through the funding formula. That's what we're saying, and it was said in a joint study with INAC too. I have a copy here. It's not translated, but it was said by a joint working group.

[Lise Bastien]

I don't know, maybe you have a new funding formula that we don't know about. But I can assure you that for the last 20 years we've been working with the same national funding formula, and it's not included at all.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Well, based on today's testimony, I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of it.

Now, earlier today you talked about the MOU that was signed in October of 2006 with INAC and the AFN of Quebec and Labrador and your counsel. I'm just wondering what the major elements were of that MOU and what actions were taken by your organization to try to implement that.

[Raymond Sioui]

Yes, as I said earlier, we did present at the forum. We had plans to implement some second-level services, but the minister instead decided to fund two more studies, mainly a vocational study and a study on second-level services. As I said, we got funding to do that major study on second-level services. We concentrated all our community and representatives, and we developed a five-year plan based on that to implement second-level services. And as I said earlier, there was a commitment from the minister that following that study, they would collaborate with us to implement second-level services. But now the answer is no, that they have no funding for that. So that was the major part of the agreement. As for the vocational training, we have been trying to educate the department over the last 12 or 15 years that there was a problem. It was recognized, and we have a study on this, and yet what have we done? We're waiting for INAC to act on it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Duncan and Mr. Sioui.

I have no more names on my list after Mr. Russell. Do you have another question, Mr. Russell?

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

With all due respect to my colleague Mr. Rickford, the only torrid pace I saw was in the speech he just made. From the mid-1990s to the early-2000s, in fact there were on average 30 schools being built. That was certainly verified by the parliamentary budget officer, an independent authority. And I would also warn you that if this is their torrid pace, God forbid that they ever slow down.

I want to say that around this table we have to recognize that there is a gap. There seems to be some element of trying to cause confusion. There's a gap in the educational attainment and there is a gap in funding, and it has to be addressed. I think every party has to recognize that's the case. Where the blame rests is a source of argument for us as politicians. But the gap exists both in funding and in educational attainment, and there are structural or systems challenges that have to be addressed as well.

In terms of the funding, there is certainly going to be an issue around a new funding formula. But I want to get back to something I asked the Auditor General as well. What is your view on not an imposed piece of legislation, but an opt-in piece of legislation around an aboriginal education authorities act? I'm drawing a little bit of inspiration from the Caledon Institute. When I mentioned B.C., I only mentioned B.C. in the vein of wondering if you could take inspiration from it, not with the idea that you could just model it. Are there elements of it that could be employed or put into place?

I'm just wondering about having proper consultation, and not having an imposed act but taking a co-drafting type of approach, an opt-in type of approach. Would that be something that would be acceptable to your council? Maybe if we had some discussions with other authorities across the country, would that be something you would look at favourably?

[Lise Bastien]

Yes, we had that discussion previously, and I'm sure it would be acceptable as long as there's proper consultation and we have the proper structure to support that. But meanwhile we need to act quickly on the urgency of the gap and the services we are delivering to our students.