Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 2nd, 2009

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

I would just like to add one thing to complete that answer, but I am hesitant to do so because some people might think we are still doing all right, in spite of our dissatisfaction.

Last Saturday, I attended a graduation ceremony for 49 people trained to provide family and paraprofessional support services. These are programs designed based on the reality in our communities in cooperation with the Forestville Occupational Training Centre. For those of you who know your geography, that is on the North Shore of Quebec. I think that is a possibility, as long as the communities agree. That does not, and should not, prevent the communities themselves from taking their own initiatives in this area.

In the same vein, I believe that, in a few weeks time, if I am not mistaken, a virtual training centre will be officially inaugurated that involved the work of two communities—namely Mashteuiatsh and Kahnawake. I would not say this was done under the aegis of the Quebec Construction Commission, but it is certainly connected to discussions with the Commission. These are initiatives that flow directly from the communities. I think that there are possibilities in both of those areas, as long as the communities are on side. That is an area where there must be greater focus.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You only have about 20 seconds.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Would you like to add something, Chief Polson?

[Chief Conrad Polson]

Yes. Timiskaming First Nation has no specific agreement with the school in Notre-Dame-du-Nord. But we are faced with a problem. Our school runs from K to grade 8, and when our children decide they want to go to a French school, we encourage them to get their education wherever they choose. But the funding we get for our children on reserve is about $4,500 per child. When they go to the provincial system, we basically have to pay double, and we don't get extra funding to be able to cover those costs. So that causes a lot of problems and uncertainty for our teaching staff to be able to continue, because it takes away some of their funding.

The special needs in our schools are very great on reserve. I find a lot of that has to do with the residential school impacts and the generational impacts involved. So the special needs on reserve are very great.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

We'll have to finish up with that, Chief. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Lemay.

Ms. Crowder, you have seven minutes.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Merci.

Thank you very much for coming before the committee today.

I was looking at a report called “The Potential Contribution of Aboriginal Canadians to Labour Force, Employment, Productivity and Output Growth in Canada, 2001-2017”. I know you're familiar with the report. I just wanted to bring up a couple of points.

It says:

Aboriginals with a high school diploma or higher had significantly better labour market outcomes, both in absolute terms and relative to non-Aboriginal Canadians, than those who did not. The potential contribution of Aboriginal Canadians to the total growth of the labour force between 2000 and 2017 is projected to be up to 7.4%. If Aboriginal Canadians were, by 2017, able to increase their level of educational attainment to the level of non-Aboriginal Canadians in 2001, the average annual GDP growth rate in Canada would be up to 0.036 percentage points higher, or an additional cumulative $71 billion....

I want to thank you again for your very good work, your analysis, and your persistence.

We know the information is before us. We know there's a funding gap. No matter which province in Canada you're looking at, there's a funding gap.

We have many reports that talk about the significant contribution that first nations, Métis, and Inuit make to their communities, to their provinces, and to the country as a whole, a contribution they have the potential to increase. Have you yourselves done that kind of analysis about lost opportunities? I think there's a lot of other work, but the second piece of it is to know what is getting in the way of correcting this imbalance.

[Lise Bastien]

No, I don't think we did that analysis, but we know for sure that everything we've been doing, all the surveys and analyses, we did on our own. It's really demanding, actually, because we don't see any positive outcomes for our communities.

I think the only answer I can give is that there's a time to understand, and I think this is the time to understand. With the economic crisis we have, yesterday we had confirmation that the government would invest in GM. I don't think they had an analysis of the impact, but they know that if they don't invest, they're going to have the huge impact of loss of employment and so on. I think it's the same thing in education.

We know, as you mentioned, that there's a huge gap, and we can't deliver occupational skills programs, technology programs, libraries, and so on, because we don't have money for that. I think education needs to be considered as an investment, because if we don't do something now, we're going to pay sooner or later.

I think we can actually confirm that we are paying a lot in social costs. It's really expensive in our communities. I'm not saying we're going to solve everything, but I'm sure we would be able to solve part of it if we had a good educational system. We'd be able to lower our social cost expenses.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I wonder if you could comment, Chief Picard. We have the information, so why aren't we moving?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

Well, to me the answer is certainly obvious, and it's probably a question that could be best answered by not only this committee but by parliamentarians in general. Part of the answer lies in the statement by the Auditor General in 2000, which essentially says that the cost of doing nothing is more important. To me, there lies part of the answer, but at the same time I think that, as Lise just put it, the less you do in this area, the more cost it's going to involve for the federal government in the short, medium, and long terms.

I know our main focus this morning is education, but if the federal government were to take some time to think about housing, for instance, and try to bridge the gap in housing, where the occupancy rate has almost doubled in aboriginal communities compared to other Canadian homes, then in the medium and long term that also might have impacts on education. I think we all understand that.

It's the same for health and for other areas pertaining to our first nations reality. To me, that's part of the answer, but overall, I think it's certainly something that deserves a closer look.

In a way, we've done that: between 1992 and 1996 the federal government spent $60 million producing a report. It was something that had never been done in the past and it hasn't been done, of course, since then. We had all the answers, and that was probably the only report that was really able to get unanimity in terms of the support from our chiefs. The blueprint was there, and it's still there, with no real movement.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

We're out of time, Madam Crowder.

Could I interject here? Chief Picard, could you name the report that you just referred to there, or tell us the date of it?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

It's the Report of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, 1992-1996.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Okay, pardon me. I just wanted to be clear what you were referring to. I appreciate that.

Mr. Albrecht, you have the floor for seven minutes.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our witnesses for being here, and especially Ms. Bastien, for your patience in asking for the report that we received. I appreciate that.

A number of weeks ago the committee had the privilege of visiting Kitigan Zibi. We were very warmly welcomed there as a committee, and it was certainly a very educational tour. Part of the tour included going through the school there, and I found that very encouraging, actually. The facilities seemed good, the staff were cheerful, and the kids seemed to be enjoying their environment, but one of the things that stood out to me was that when we arrived in the library, we were informed that there are no funds for libraries in schools.

Subsequent to that we received this booklet, which I looked at on the way home in the bus. On page 25 it says that the current funding formula does not include costs for essential elements of a school system, such as libraries, technology, sports and recreation, or first nations languages. Then in our briefing notes today from the Library of Parliament, in the third bullet on page 3, that statement is basically repeated: it says the funding model does not include libraries, information and communications technology, sports and recreation, and so on.

Obviously this caused me some concern, because my kids have benefited from libraries, as my grandkids are benefiting now. It seems to me that's a very essential component of funding for education, so I asked my staff to do some research on it, and the information that I have from the department does not jibe with the statements I'm reading in either the Library of Parliament's briefing notes or your report.

I'm going to read a bit from the department's notes here:

Funding of Schools - School Space Accommodation Standards INAC funds schools on reserve according to its Schools Space Accommodation Standards. The School Space Accommodation Standards provide space for libraries within the schools in First Nation school projects but not for library buildings outside of the school. These standards for libraries within the schools are defined as part of the Special Purpose Areas which include: Administrative Areas, Multi-purpose Rooms, Library/Resource Centers, Auditorium/Gymnasium, Science Rooms, Home Economic Rooms, Industrial Arts Rooms, Commercial/Computer Rooms and Other Areas.

Then it goes on to identify the actual standards. A smaller school with a projected enrolment of 35 to 60 would normally have only a multi-purpose room with a shared library function. Larger elementary schools--and certainly Kitigan Zibi would fit this category--with an enrolment of 61 students or greater would be provided with a dedicated library resource centre.

There's something missing in the picture here, and I was wondering if you could explain why these funding allocations that the department outlines in its information were somehow omitted from this report.

[Lise Bastien]

I think you refer to funding for immobilisation for space. It's within the standards for school construction. You're right, in school construction norms, they have standards for libraries. But we know that there's a huge gap in school construction money too.

But here's another thing. The funding formula for schools does not cover the operation of a library, the books, the technician, the librarians, and the software to manage a library. There's no component in the funding formula for the operation, for the inside of the box.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

So you're saying to me that INAC has funding for the space for the libraries within the school projects, but that once that library is put up, there is no staff, there are no books, there are no computers, there are no science--

[Lise Bastien]

That's it. And I can't meet any of the people who work at the administration centre. I know about that funding. I was there at the time they put it down 20 years ago, and there's nothing for books and the operation.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Then can you explain to me why on page 25 it says it doesn't include costs for essential elements of a school system such as libraries? Because obviously libraries are included. I think there remains to be a little clarification on the actual wording within the report.

The other question I would have is that it's my understanding that there are other departments within the federal government that do contribute in significant ways to education. It's not only at the secondary level but the post-secondary as well. It's my understanding that through HRSDC our government is providing an additional $200 million over three years to support the aboriginal skills development program, and $75 million in the new two-year aboriginal skills and training strategic investment fund.

So could you give a global picture for ordinary Canadians like me to understand that there are different departments within the federal government? If you look at them in isolation, you may say this isn't adequate; but when you take the different silos of departments within the federal government, take them in a global sense, there are in fact increased dollars and resources available to aid in the development of the education component for aboriginal people. I commend you for your interest and your advocacy on the part of education. I just want to make sure that we have a complete picture.

[Lise Bastien]

Do I have time for an answer?

I think you refer to the same thing the province has, but these programs don't go to the school. It's employment measures you're talking about. This is really different. It's not something that will help the elementary and high schools buy technologies or develop any occupational skills program.

Also, as a last point, the schools shouldn't be funded under an annual project. It should be recurrent and we should have a vision, a program in education.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Actually we're out of time, but I see Chief Picard wished to add some additional comments, and we'll take some time for that. Just for 30 seconds, if we can, Chief.

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

Yes, for sure.

Certainly I'm interested in the human resources aspects. I just wanted to also respond to the question, because in year one, in 1995, when we signed the first agreement in human resources, we were already saying that there's a very important gap between what Quebec gets and what first nations get for the same area of activity. And as a matter of fact, according to our figures--although there's that envelope of $200 million--we're still short about $80 million, with 2009 figures. So there is already some catching up to do there as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Chief, and thank you, Mr. Albrecht.

Now we'll go to the second round, a five-minute round, and we'll begin with Mr. Bagnell, for five minutes.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you very much for coming.

I think the good news is you're making some progress if you see that all four parties here are shocked that we're not funding library operations. Obviously, something has to happen.

Before I ask my question, could you give me a clarification? There are more aboriginal people who live off reserve, in cities, etc., so if an aboriginal person lives in Montreal or Quebec, is their education totally funded by the Quebec government, or the provincial government if they're in a province, in a city?

[Lise Bastien]

If they live off reserve?

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Yes.